HR Superstars
HR Superstars

Episode · 1 month ago

People Practices Are Systematic, Not Programmatic


Your culture has to connect to the solution(s) you offer, your compensation strategy has to connect to your culture, your planning process has to connect to your goals for your workforce…

All this stuff has to connect. Why?

People practices aren’t programmatic. They’re systematic.

In this episode, we interview Denise Thomas , VP, Operations (COO) at Cisco Meraki , about why people practitioners need to build systems, not programs:

Denise talks with us about:

  • Architecting for human experience and high performance
  • Reverse engineering your company culture to support people and business need
  • The power of the cultural environment to influence business outcomes
  • Why career ladders need to topple
  • Taking a systematic perspective on the cultural environment

For the entire interview, subscribe to HR Superstars on Spotify , Apple Podcasts , or Stitcher . Or tune in on our website .

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for HR Superstars in your favorite podcast player.

And the modern day, thinking aboutcareer laddering and the modern day, thinking around like how people shoulddefine success where careers are concerned, get us to a place wherepeople have stopped chasing their curiosity and they've started chasingtitles. They have stopped US riding like you know, trying to solve reallygreat business problems, and I don't want people to think that, like beingthoughtful about how jobs are constructed and being clear around thecapabilities required to be successful in that job or things that you shouldnot do. I just don't think that you should build a career around the ladderyou're listening to HR superstars, a podcast from to fiteen five, thehighlight stories from the front lines of H, R and people ops. Each episodewill show case fascinating conversations with leaders offeringtheir unique experiences and advice for building an extraordinary company andhelter. Let's get into the show, welcome back to another episode of HRsuperstars. Today, we're really excited to have denise homas Denise is the COOfor Cisco Marocky Business Unit, where she's responsible for areas such asinclusion, Employe Experience and program management. She formerly servedas Maraki chief of staff and head of people than played a pivotal role inenabling Morocco to grow from three hundred employees to over two thousandhelping the team navigate its high growth start up stage through asuccessful integration as part of Cisco, and I think what is I'm really excitedabout this conversation, because it's not often we get to talk to a formerhead of people turned into coo that really grasps the business insights andwhat it takes to move a business forward, as well as what it takes tobuild. A healthy and thriving people in culture, so denise welcome to the showwere really excited to have you well. I'm super excited to be here. So thanksfor inviting me to the conversation, absolutely de Somes, almos interestedto understand how somebody ended up moving into the world of HR- and I knowyou've had you know really interesting career path. So so how did you end upmoving in that direction and what drew you to that line of work? Yeah? That's.I have like the type of resume that recruiters look at and don't understandand and there and as a person yeah, I know the person who at some point ranrecruiting. I was like yeah. I could understand why you never would want totalk to someone like me, but I you know, I think if I look at my career and someit all up like I, I just don't like a curious person, like I kind of go towhere my curiosity takes me and at the court of of it. I just like to buildthings and what has been interesting about my career path is that I havebeen able to see what it looks like to build something from differentperspectives right. So I spent time working in a warehouse and adistribution center and figured out that, like you know, the logistics ofgetting things to a customer is it's they're huge right, like a lot ofthings, have to go right for something to end up on the shelf, and a lot ofpeople have to be focused in order. For that same thing to happen, I worked innon profits. I started a non profit, helped to like build an organizationthat our goal was like to allow young people to tap into their best potentialand, like you spent time really thinking about well, what is a strengthactually look like in having turn that strength into driving value in acommunity and just the other day. The most amazing thing happened is like yougot to see that actually happening. One of the young people that was in aprogram were the first. Yes guys we ever hired is a is a staterepresentative in Massachusetts, and she just endorsed another young personthat was in the program running for a city council seat in the city of Austin,like moments like that like, if you don't have a career like this, it getsreally hard to have moments like that. So I just been able to see a business,and I've also been able to see people...

...from a lot of different angles and whenI got to as working at long strigs at the time running and operationalfinance team like we were doing like with porting and trying to findopportunities for the organization to get better at drink and labormanagement and stuff like that and the Co came to me and said I'd like to pulltogether some reporting on my on my leaders. Can we say there areindications of someone being a better leader? What are those data points andhow can we start looking at our leaders in that way, and I started to playaround with that and what I realized that all through my career up until now,in all these different places, I had been trying to figure out how to makepeople more successful as a leader and then I was like well what, if I coulddo that at scale, and I tar is kind of the place that felt right and I broughtmyself to that curiosity almost kicking and screaming, because I was like whatwill you say when you go to business couns and when I went, and I I told himwhat I was doing for you were like. Oh so you just want to to spend more timewith your family right and I was like no that's not why I took the strong, soI brought myself kicking and screaming to that curiosity, and it was the besttime it just gave me time to think about how to make people successful and,at the end of the day, that's kind of what we're always doing anyway. Okay.So it's super interesting. The identity crisis of of moving from, likesomething that's seen, is more of a like, respectable business professionof where you're actually contributing value to oh you're moving to HR,because you don't want to work as hard or your you kind of want to phone it inor something and earlier we were taught in the pre interview we were talkingabout living in Richmond and that we both lived in the N s. You know I usedto live in the same neighborhood as you and when I was leaving San Franciscoand I was about to move to Richmond. I was like Oh, how am I going to handlethe like Goi identity of saying I moved from San Francisco to Richmond and justhow wrong when how wrong we usually are? When our ego is concerned aboutsomething like that perception yeah, I don't know how much you watchbasketball, but there's a player on the buck and he just was gone, and he istalking about honey now and Edos in it when it's all about the rear view like.How am I going to talk about or how? I was I talking about what I used to door what I had done or whatever like whenever you get in that mindset.That's when you know you're in that Edo mindset right and I think, when you're,making career moves and stuff like that, like I catch myself, sometimes you likewell, what will people say? Have I done enough and I'm like? Oh that's aboutthat's about me, trying to validate how I spent my time or Valida. You know theimpact that I had whatever and whenever it's about me it is unlikely about thebusiness and it's unlikely about the people that are in that business. Sowhen he said it the other day, they just had it as a clip on an espn orsomething, and I thought to Mysel God- that's a great way of looking at itwhenever you find yourself looking backwards and really trying to do allthat, assessing and whatever, like most of the time. What that's about is youworking through your own yea, which is probably a recipe, do not have anextraordinary career and make the maximum amount of impact, and actuallyyou know, live a great life yeah and it also like, I think you get caught inregret, which I often find is a thing that is paralyzing the fear of it orthe fear of having it. So you know, I think it's it's hard. Hethat has been on my mind ever since he said that, and I thought it was a greatway to think about how to not get yourself caught by by yourself for likea peri describing so God yeah. That's really good, I'm curious! You know youtalked about as a leader wanting to support others in being successful andthat being one of the IMP impetus for moving into HR. What were some of thethings that you were worried about your...

...ability to influence that, and wheredid you find you were able to really through your work in HR influence? Thatkind of outcome I mean, I think one of the things that felt important to mewas the type of environment that we were asking people to bring theircareers to like you know, I think that there have been days, some of whichthat are still today, where tech has not looked like the place. That wasreally inviting to folks that you know came from different backgrounds or youknow, had different educational experiences and it's a kind of like afunny thing that this pocket of innovation could then start to narrowwhat was acceptable from a people perspective when you were trying toinnovate. It like it is like counter intuitive that that's what you shoulddo, and so I think that was one of the things that, when I moved into likepeople practices, especially when I came to Marocky, it was like well whatwhat kind of an environment do we want to have, and how do you actually goabout architecting for that kind of environment, because I think somepeople are of the mindset that it just happens, and it just doesn't justhappen. If you let it just happen. A lot of times you get a lot of what youdon't want, and you know working backwards and saying hey. Who Do weneed to be as a business? What do our costumers actually mean and then workin the backward and saying okay? Well, what kind of team do we need to have inorder to be able to deliver on that market opportunity or those customerexpectations or business schools and then being able to say how do we codifythat in the least number of words, so that we folks can know what it means tobe a part of our community know what it means to you know be a good workmate tosomeone know what it means that you know like. We all may use differentlanguage, but at the core we are orienting around the set of principlesor values or how we describe them that help us define what our community islike and help us define kind of what does good look like in it, and thatlevel of orchestration and architecting for experience has always felt like themost important thing, at least to me that you can do as a peoplepractitioner. There are best practices in the compensation, there's some bestpractices in leader development, and I think some of those Bresh practices arehave been with us this entire time. Like one time I was talking my dad andI was like I'm having this challenge and he's like a years ago. You knowit's like this speed to her person. told me this really great strategy andI'm like leaving over, can't wait to hear it, and he does really good one onones and hats like good to know the practices have been there. Now it'sjust a question I was like: How do you take those practices into anorganization right size them for the size of our organization and like right,focus them for the business and the opportunity that you have out there?How do you take that and build a cohesive system that allows you to havea place where folks can really do their best thinking and their best work? AndI don't know like when I realize that that's what the work was about, I goteven more excited and more curious around. Had you actually do it. So whenI look back at my time as helping with people work at Marocky, I thinkcodifying a culture in a set of values and really helping to think about likewhat are the systems that we need around that in order to make thatculture actually real, is probably the thing then I feel, like I learned the most tellus a couple interesting things, soreverse engineering culture to fulfill both people being successful but alsowith the business needs, and I think that it's another threat, I'm pickingup in our conversation, is that you really see people in culture as an youknow. You said this earlier as a core business function versus a you know,help the company not ensued kind of function, and I'm wondering how youknow. Why was that so obvious to you a...

...little bit ahead of the curve right?It's I think it's a little bit more of a standard, acceptable belief systemthat HR people, ops is core to business success. But what had you see that fromday one I mean, I guess, maybe I spent some time like building a non profitwith fifteen. Sixteen and seventeen year olds, like it's, bent like fiveyears of my life, doing that, starting with an idea and turning it into anorganization with my cofounder, and I think, when you start in a place likethat and there're, no there's, no unlimited budgets. I think the firstyear we started with thirty grand from an organization that invested in socialentrepreneurs in the same way that you know they were investing inentrepreneurs that were chasing for profit ventures. So they wrote a checkand they said, go do this thing and when you start with limited resources,and then you start with a population that people think of as limited incapability, you start to think about other ways of creating success or otherways of inspiring excellence or other ways of defining outcome. Like you haveto start at a different place than I'm going to write you this check and we'regoing to have this relationship that is traded. I give you money, you give meoutput like yeah. There was a little bit of that like we paid these youngpeople, so there was that trading but like we also realized the power ofempowerment, and we realize the power of you know delegating decisions. Werealize the power creating a culture where people felt like they had a gift,and we just need to figure out like how we could deploy that gift against whatwe needed to do like a lot of the success that we were able to have wasyeah. It was a cool idea, but it was more successful because we created aculture where people could see themselves being successful and wecould create sort of virtual cycles of success right. You got better at thisand we got better in the delivery that we had to the community, which is thetime of these walking tours. You got better at researching. We got better atdocumented, the history of you know under Sertin communities like wecreated a culture around excellence and we created a culture around improvementand growth, and you know we created a culture of you know being able to pull.You know incredible output out of resources that you know other peoplewould look at and go, there's no way that that those group of people couldproduce this type of thing, and I don't know like I think I've always just beenlike the power of the community. Experience is important and if I thinkback, I just knew it. I could feel it like. You could feel like the momentwhen the environment clicked and it you knew you were going to get to outcomeand whether it was like when I was volunteering in college and help me torun that organization or just like organizing field day when it was likein the fourth grades, like I think very early on, I recognize like the power ofthe environment and it could you know I put rugby in college and we were notthe best rite team to begin with, and we worked on the environment. There isan environment that comes along with winning and if you're really thoughtfulabout it, you can turn a rebutia had not won a lot of games into a team thatyou know beat Smith, which was amazing at the time, and we had better players,but we had a different environment around winning and I don't know like it.Maybe it's just core like it's Cora who what I think makes things successful. Ialways I guess I always start there. So I'm imagining, like you know, a posterof like everything I learned about running a multi billion dollar techcompany. I learned in community organizing and non profit empoweringyou. I can almost draw back most of the things to that and the experience thatI had working in a distribution center at free to lie like I can almost likejust draw the lines right back to that.

What what I low about that is for thepeople that are working in a distribution center that are running onprofits of everything we do. We can be connecting the dots and we can belearning from, and we don't know how those lessons are going to then beapplied in later stages in our life and our career, and so I just I just lovethat you were always observing and paying attention and kind ofassimilating the insight and the wisdom that you've then been able to scaleyeah. I think it's I'm fortunate in the sense of it's the way that I see theworld right like I, and you know, other people see it a different way and- andsometimes it's interesting when you're sitting on a leadership team- and youknow we kind of all- come at it from different perspectives, but I alwaysstart like I always start like environment and community first andwork my way backwards, even from a business perspective. I think of likewell well, what's the opportunity in the market, what is the community ofusers saying about the thing that we are trying to do? What is the problemthat they are trying to solve and if you start there and work backwards? Ijust found that, like your failure, rate goes down and you also just giveyourself a little bit more room to experiment, because you are kind ofyour kind of bat like thinking backwards a bit and you can get lesstied to it has to be this way or it has like because you're like, Oh, no, I'mjust starting with like. What's out there and working my way backwards, Ican get less stock in in feeling like I I know the way I don't rarely do. Iknow the way most of the Times, I'm just trying of feeling my way to thething that feels like it's working right until we get to the point whereit clicks and I go. It doesn't matter anymore, because I've got the rightgroup of people thinking about things in the right way and an environmentthat really supports that thinking of experimentation and trying and thenretrying and rethinking that once you get that, I can like any problem. Finelike so so yeah. I don't know it's just the way. I see the world and I guess Igot fortunate in the sense that it seems to be working for me so great. Igot chills when you're talking about the power of the environment, becauseyou know I've often said that you take the same person and you put them in twodifferent cultures and they're going to show up a different way, so the powerof that environment, to put kind of pull the best out of us is reallyamazing, and I love what you also said about helping people or identifyingthose young people's strengths and I'm curious if there was like somethingthat you did in helping people discover that for themselves or was it more ofyou and the rest of your team pointing that out and others. What was theprocess for for helping people understand, that they even had stringsand gifts and what they were? You don't like. I have to really credit my cofounder with this. Her name is Carolyn Crockett and she sort of had this wayabout. We just talk to people. We talked to them about like what theyliked doing. We talked to them about you, know themselves and how they sawthemselves and where they thought that they wanted to go like we spent a lotof time just talking to these young people like and not in a patronizingkind of weird adult than to lecture you about the future. Yeah like exactlylike. I know exactly months, go to college and I has a look like that: no,but just listening to them caring what their ideas were reinforcing, you knowgreat ones and encouraging them being willing to be like not the way that Iwould do it. But, okay, like let's see what happens when you do that, and- andI think what happens is that then people start to be like. Oh I'm, fullycapable of making decisions, I'm fully capable of you know solving problems onmy you know, and then all of a sudden I think they start to recognize with eachother hey. You know you're really great... this and you're really great at thisand like why? Don't we use that in order to get to you know these outcomesthat we have to get to? I do think like trying to understand people's strengthreally start from a place of like. Where do you realize you start to losetime and how you structure that conversation? For you know some ofthat's fifteen, maybe is a little bit different than how you can structure itfor someone that works on your team, but, like the principle, is still thesame like no. When do you look up and realize that lots of hours have tickedoff the fock and you didn't notice- and I promise you like if you try to filmmore of your days with that than the other, you will do just better work andyou will feel better about the work that you did. So it is a lot o not ofconversation, and I do think that, like I feel like I'm getting worse atconversation as I go along, you know like I sometimes I'm like I like myselfmore. I like line manager self more than like the exact self, becausethere's line manager self always felt like there was always time for justmore conversation. Exact self starts to feel like. Oh, this liberals and we'regoing to manage just sing up, and then we got this thing in this burningplatform and that's other thing and like, and then you lose that space andthat ease of just being like hey how's it going what field you want and whatdidn't, and you know like some of the questions that I think were hard of.You know a part of fifteen five seconds and stuff like fatly, you like whatlike what gave you energy? What didn't, and I feel like that has been when Ifeel like I have been able to unleash the best in people it has been onethere. Just has been that time to do that initial exploration and thatcontinuous conversation around this thing. I mean it really interestingbecause, especially as a HR, tech, company and Building Technology,solutions and education solutions around how to help people have betterconversations, the heart of it still is the actual living conversation like notool can ever actually replace. That continuous conversation that I thinkthat is such a powerful lesson for all of us stay in the dialogue. Stayconnected, stay curious and it's hard or assumption yeah and it's hard tostay in the dialogue about like what fills you up. It's hard tostay in the dialogue about that the sometimes the further you alone you golike. I'm always like how many conversations do I have aroundpromotion versus how many conversations do I have around growth? And you know what is you energy or whatyou're curious about like? I wish I could have zero conversations aboutpromotions and a hundred percent conversations about those things, but Idon't suppose that's how the modern corporate ladder works. Fifteen five is the only evidence basedpeople and performance platform for highly engaged in high performingorganizations. Strategic HR leaders in all industries use the platform to winby improving communication up leveling. Their managers and increasing companywide engagement learn more O fife five com- great yeah, well, you'll you'll reallydig this so why we're building out career hub in fifteen five, which isall about career ladders and helping people get promotions, but we're really,starting with more of a self actualization perspective, more of theWHA. What actually gives you energy? What do you love doing? What is thework that you do, that you look up and five hours is passed, because we reallythink that if you start there you're going to have more high performers, youcan have higher engagement. Personally, your career will be a lot morefulfilling, and you know it's interesting because simultaneously HRteams are like well, I really need the ladders to so. We know like we're, ofcourse, providing ladders, but I love that, because it's validating that, ifwe really have more of the...

...conversations about what fills people'scups, then we're all going to win. I think that the I hate a career letter-and I know I've been you- know, a person that made people make them andmake you know grade structures and capabilities. A lot of this thing I getit like it's necessary people need to understand. What's for part of a roleand an ideally, if you do those things andpeople can build a career that allows them to see. How do I take the skillsand capabilities that I have and maybe put it against different problems orsomething like that, so they are not without their place. In my you know,cumble thr opinion, but I think you're right, like what gets lost in theconversation is the power of lateral movement. What gives lost in theconversation once you start talking about a career ladder is the power oftaking a step back, so you can learn about something new. I went from lines,you know, being a you know director and what was at the time like a fortune,five hundred company to taking an individual contributor role likebecause I was curious about something and if I had been focused around thecorea letter, I would never have made those moves like it wouldn't have madea lot of the career moves, because I'd have been too worried about well was. Iwas like going to resume and de like in the modern day, thinking about careerladdering and the moder Ay thinking around like how people should definesuccess where careers are concerned, get us to a place where people havestopped chasing their curiosity and they've started chasing titles. Theyhave stopped as ring like you know, trying to solve really great businessproblems. They stop doing that and they've started. You know chasing, Idon't know wards or whatever. I don't get me wrong. I'm a human and I like toget paid but like at the end of the day that paycheck feels kind of hollow tome, regardless of how many nice things it can buy. If I wake up in the morning-and I don't feel like I'm leaning into the things that I know I'm better atthem- The things that I'm not so, I recognize the importance of the careerladder and I don't want people to think that, like being thoughtful about howjobs are constructed and being clear around the capabilities required to besuccessful in that job or things that you should not do. I just don't thinkthat you should build a career around the ladder right well get back to theEGO. You know if because because it's often of that perception, oh wellwhat'll. Other people think if I move from a director role to an IC role,because that's actually what I'm curious and passionate about it's like,Oh yeah, that's that might be a hit to the EGO yeah. What's you know, wouldyou rather take a hitter? You go or suffocate your soul oof. That makes it real clear thanks for putting it in those be Omanto write that one down suffocate my soul, definitely never optimizing forthat. One Yeah! Well, I mean so much of the world. I mean you know, like thethe soul. Crushing work is such a common refrain and you know I think Ithink we're going to live in a much more beautiful world if we actuallyhave a soul and livening work versus whole. Crushing word. If we, if wethink about environments, right of reverse engineering or company culture,to be sole, enlivening versus ego, crushing or or no no, I guess sometimesit's good to crash that you go to wake up. The ste also think that, likecoming out, if we can even dare to say that that's what we're doing right nowbut we're, let me not say that continuing to experience Antelias,probably a better way of describing it. I I think that has made a lot of people more clear on whatis so refreshing to them. I think people have had to sit in isolation insome cases and in my case and close proximity with a bunch of kids and myhusband, and they now just really had to think about what really matters andwhat time really fulfills them and what...

...things don't. They've re evaluated therelationships and tried to like fill their lives with the people that mattermost and for the people that matter to them. They have stayed in, like they've,made new, renewed commitments to keep in contact with those folks. There's acomedian tag Navaro, a God. Why? I can't have her last name but she's tohave, and she has this podcast like don't ask Tig and in the podcast shetalked about like she just changed her phone number and she only gave a numberto people that she had been most recently in contact with people aredoing things like that. They are changing the number. They arerethinking relationships, they're rethinking their relationship withtheir employer and with their work, and I think if we come back at people withcareer ladders and Ja like you like, we just will have, we will not have readthe room and we will have a showed up to have a conversation. That foich isnot not in not everyone, but I would say most people are not trying to comeback to maybe some previous ways of working together with that in mind anymore, and maybe itwon't be sustained and forever. But I hope that's no tooth. I think a careerled by curiosity and introspection and finding fulfilment is really ultimatelydown the line on when win. For for all the people who do that and for theorganizations who are lucky enough to get somebody who's come from that placeas opposed to trying to get the next title, and certainly you know it makesher an interesting career. I mean I had a very similar path in that I followedmy curiosity after starting an ad TEC company ran off to Brazil and started akite surfing travel company before coming back to find fifteen five, andhe wonders to this day why he left that business. Exactly what was I thinkingnow, but it's amazing. It's actually things that I experienced on that ledled me to have the vision for fifteen five and to be curious about how wecould create work places that really did create an environment where peoplecould thrive where people were. You know not just trading their life for apaycheck, but we're more fulfilled in the process, and so and that's really,I think, the big focus of why we start a career hub with those things liketeeing up conversations with managers to have those introspective dialoguewith their people to help them understand what they really care aboutand what they want. Yeah. I couldn't agree more, which isn't to sayit's easy, yeah. No, I but I've had conversations with folks an they comein and they're just like. Well, I don't know what I want and I go okay. Well,that's you know. Fine, that's a fine place to start. I can't pay attentionfor you, but you surely can pay attention on your own behalf. You knowthey shave an all. What would you do? I was like that's fascinating. What wouldI do only matters to me like like for my career respective, and I wouldn'tnecessarily suggest this path to everyone but like there is this it'shard to look at yourself and it's Wal to really try to hold a lens up thatsets. What am I good at? What I'm? Not good at those things are really hard todo. I think what is easier to do is just to figure out how you can quiet yourselfenough to pay attention to how your body is reacting to the things that youare doing. Where do you find ease like where do you lose time? As I saidbefore, where does your breath just come easier and let that be the guideas opposed putting your head so much into that assessment of where yourstrengths are, and you know where you are able to drive more value. Isomebody once said that to me and we were working through like you know,they have a little bit of a like you trying to work through a heart edgethat I had, and he said well, you know, like you, can be actor respond, butlike one of the ways to notice where...'re at is just to pay attention toyour full body, and I thought that was just such great advice and I fin youknow. I have said it to others like. If you don't know it's, because you areintellectualizing, your feelings, pay attention to your feelings and it'samazing, and what a almost sacrilegious statement like emotions and bodyawareness and paying attention to what your body is telling you in a corporateworld. You know- and I think that again, that's part of the transition we'remaking where the COO of I think Sisco Maraki is a multi. Multi Billion DollarCompany is advocating to listen to your body, well bring out the crystals here shot. Ah, and I do live in Sedona so yeah, Iknow all about the crystals, okay, okay, I'd love to talk a little bit aboutyour train. You know your x HR story and you know your transition tochoosing to go into the CO role and and what was that like? And how do youthink about hr differently from your experience being a coo and vice versa?How do you think about like if you could have gone back and told youryounger Hursel, some wisdom that you've now gained in this experience? Whatwould that be? It's a good question. I mean, I think the thing that I wouldprobably tell myself is to build a system. Don't build programs right,like you like all of this stuff has to connect. Becaus got to connect to theyou know what you're trying to get out of the door from a product perspectiveof crusoe problems. Your customers are trying to solve Blah Blah Blah. It'sgot to connect to that. It's got a you know your culture has to connect tothat. Then your compensation strategy has to connect to your culture. Yourplanning process from planning from your business has to connect to workforce. Thinking your leader development motion has to connect to your culturelike people practices are not programmatic, they're systematic right.Can you break that down programmatic versus systematic when you think aboutit? You're, like Oh, has this compensation program, and then I havethis leader: Development Manager, training program, and then I have thislistening strategy, and I have this you know and then and then you try to knittogether the insights of those things in order to be able to help betterinform you know where the business is going and how the business operates,but the reality of the situation is that, like this thing, is a threadedsystem like how you plan for Your Business, long term or just annual oreven quarterly, your people, practices have to be in service to just even thatplanning cycle and the thinking that has to happen in that planning cycle.Your employ experience. Practices are all up in that too, as in I, yourleader capability and your leader, development motions like for a leaderto be ready to do those things you have had to build some capability in thebusiness in order to enable that and you've had to build decision, making,crame works or strategies or protocols or whatever that allow people to takeon responsibility and accountability in a way that allows for that planningprocess to work. Doctor Dock. So that's just like one stream around how all ofthese things have to be connected, and then your listening motion has to comeback around it and to say is the thing that we plan to do in the directionthat we have set out for the folks in this organization? Is it inspiring andcreating engagement? And you know you know allowing people to really feellike they're working on something that these things are not silent, and Ithink sometimes, when you come out it from a practitioner perspective, that'skind of what you're doing you're like Oh, I have this person that you knowwill give me the best practices and compensation, and this other one that'sgoing to give me the best practicing and business partnership. And you knowthis one experience and this one in...

...facilities, management and duck dot andthen you're, like Oh yeah, like they kind of work together. Kind of worktogether is not good enough kind of work together, Oka kind of don't worktogether, yeah exactly right like because the minute from a person,that's outside the practitioners perspective like they will see howthose things have disinni like and because you're going to ask them to dosome stuff, sometimes as they don't feel comfortable doing or feels hard orwhatever. And I you know when you get people in a moment like that, they arevery happy to tell you all the reasons why this is not great, but you gottaalmost do it like a sweater where player the threads are all there andthey're neated together and when you start to pull on one, it should have animpact on the sweater, like it's Goin t start to pull this water apart. So Idon't know that's a good way of describing it, but as a former practiceor and now user of these practices, I go. No. You got to mit this together alittle bit better, and here are some of the reasons why. But I didn't spendenough time thinking about that when you're ready to teach a master class oflessons from the Coo for hr practitioners or something let us knowwell partner- will get it well. We'll sell the heck out of it to our HRsuperstars community, because I really think that more of that integration ofthe whole systems, business thinking with hr is what makes hr a trulystrategic business investment versus the thing that you're kind ofembarrassed to talk about. When you go to your high school reo, Yeah Yeah, Ithink the quote at my high school reading I was I said you were supposedto be successful at. I was like well good thing. I think Ireally prepared myself for these moments, but yeah I am yeah. I don'tknow if I'd go to any master class. I was teaching in this thing, but I dothink that, like it has been a bit of a gift to have spent that time in thepeople practices as I try to navigate other business problems, because I youknow, I wish most people more people had to have spent some time in t hr,yeah yeah it just it just feels like a good place to spend some time and tohave to think about these practices, not on a one to one relationship paces,but to have to think about them a bit more at that scale. What do you notmiss about running hr and all all the HR practitioners out there? You knowjust don't know like it's just kind of like sick pleasure of like Oh, I wouldnot miss that either. You know I mean I was never a person that really lovedthe intepeter of employee relations cases never like. I grew up in a house wherepeople are like that private is private. You know I've had to work through thatin my life go getting out of that. So I still feel like I take a little bit ofthat with me where I'm like wow. This is a lot for your job. You know so Ilike it. I love Beintein Yeah. I just I was always like like I was always in astate of shock, so the smallest thing shock me. So I haveto say I to know for folks that this is their work and they get great pleasureof helping folks do this challenging situations. I am I'm happy to workthrough them, one on one with an employee. I don't miss the aggregateddata of all of that boy, a ES. This has been reallywonderful. I just so appreciate who you are, and now you see the world. Well,thank you for creating a space like this for folks to talk about this. Iwould have loved this podcast like eight years ago when I was ill in thethick of this, but I believe in the power of community and I'm excited Ifor the community that you're you're...

...helping to nurture so things forallowing me to be a part absolutely if anyone listening is follow up questionsor wants to connect with you. What's the best way for them to find you, Ohyeah, you can find me on Linkedin, that's kind of where I am. I have likethe I'm, not very good at twitter or any of these other things and prettyokay at Lindon. So you can shoot me a number and a note there and will chatyeah. That's my best place great! Thank you! So much denise for all ourlisteners. We'd love to warmly invite you to join us in the HR superstarscommunity for resources, exclusive events and a robust group of peopleleaders go to FIT FICO forward community. It only takes a quick minuteto join we'd like to think our guests. Denise Thomas Our producer, sweetishmedia death coordinator Sydney Lee our executive producer, David Misner, allof our fifteen fivers and all of our customers that make this possible andthank you for listening. You've been listening to HR superstars stories fromthe front lines of H, R and people. Ops Be sure you never miss an episode bysubscribing on your favorite podcast player. If you're listening on ApplePodcasts, we'd love sang to leave a thoughtful with you or give a quickrating by tapping the stars. Thank you so much for listening until next time ET.

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