HR Superstars
HR Superstars

Episode · 1 year ago

People Practices Are Systematic, Not Programmatic


Your culture has to connect to the solution(s) you offer, your compensation strategy has to connect to your culture, your planning process has to connect to your goals for your workforce…

All this stuff has to connect. Why?

People practices aren’t programmatic. They’re systematic.

In this episode, we interview Denise Thomas , VP, Operations (COO) at Cisco Meraki , about why people practitioners need to build systems, not programs:

Denise talks with us about:

  • Architecting for human experience and high performance
  • Reverse engineering your company culture to support people and business need
  • The power of the cultural environment to influence business outcomes
  • Why career ladders need to topple
  • Taking a systematic perspective on the cultural environment

For the entire interview, subscribe to HR Superstars on Spotify , Apple Podcasts , or Stitcher . Or tune in on our website .

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for HR Superstars in your favorite podcast player.

And the Modern Day thinking about career laddering and the modern day thinking around like how people should define success where careers are concerned, get us to a place where people have stopped chasing their curiosity and they've started chasing titles. They have stopped seeing like, you know, trying to solve really great business problems, and I don't want people to think that, like being thoughtful about how jobs are constructed and being clear around the capabilities required to be successful in that job or things that you should not do. I just don't think that you should build a career around the ladder. You're listening to HR superstars, a podcast from fifteen five that highlights stories from the front lines of HR and people ups. Each episode will showcase fascinating conversations with leaders offering their unique experiences and advice for building an extraordinary company and culture. Let's get into the show. Welcome back to another episode of HR superstars. Today we're really excited to have denise Thomas de Nie is. This COO FOR CISCO Moroki's Business Unit, where she's responsible for areas such as inclusion, employee experience and program management. She formerly served as Morocci's chief of staff and head of people and played a pivotal role in enabling Morocci to grow from three hundred employees to over two thousand, helping the team navigate its high growth startup stage through successful integration as part of Cisco. And I think what is I'm really excited about this conversation because it's not often we get to talk to a former head of people turned into COO that really grasps the business insights and what it takes to move a business forward, as well as what it takes to build a healthy and thriving people in culture. So, Denise, welcome to the show. We're really excited to have you. Well, I'm super excited to be here, so thanks for inviting me to the conversation. Absolutely the Nie. I'm always I'm always interested to understand how somebody ended up moving into the world of HR and. You know you've had, you know, really interesting career paths. So how did you end up moving in that direction and what drew you to that line of work? Yeah, that's I have like the type of resume that recruiters look at and don't understand and and and as of course. Yeah, I know it's a person who at some point ran recruiting. I was like, yeah, I could understand why you never would want to dive to someone like me, but I you know, I think if I look at my career and some it all up, like I I just don't like a curious person like I kind of go to where my curiosity takes me and at the core of of it, I just like to build things, and what has been interesting about my career path is that I have been able to see what it looks like to build something from different perspectives. Right. So, I spent time working in a ware House and a distribution center and figured out that, like you know, the logistics of getting things to a customer is they it's they're huge, right, like a lot of things have to go right for something to end up on a shelf and a lot of people have to be focused in order for that same thing to happen. I worked in nonprofits. I started a nonprofit. I helped to like build an organization that our goal was like to allow young people to tap into their best potential and, like you, spent time really thinking about, well, what is a strength actually look like, and having turn that strength into driving value in a community and just the other day. The most amazing thing happened is like you got to see that actually happening. One of the young people that was in the program, one of the first youth guys we ever hired, is a is a state representative in Massachusetts and she just endorsed another young person that was in the program running for City Council seat in the city of Austin. Like moments like that, like if you don't have a career like this, it gets really hard to have moments like that. So I just been able to see a business and...

I've also been able to see people from a lot of different angles. And when I got to as working at long strugs at the time, running an operational finance team, like we were doing, like we're pourting and trying to find opportunities for the organization to get better at shrink and labor management and stuff like that, and the CEO came to me and said I'd like to pull together some reporting on my on my leaders. Can we say they're indications of someone being a better leader? What are those data points and how can we start looking at our leaders in that way? And I started to play around with that and what I realized that all through my career up until now and all these different places, I had been trying to figure out how to make people more successful as a leader, and then I was like, well, what if I could do that at scale, and HR is kind of the place that felt right, and I brought myself to that curiosity almost kicking and screaming, because I was like, what will you say when you go to it? This is cool reunions, and when I went and I told them what I was doing, you were like, Oh, so you just wanted to spend more time with your family, right, and as like no, that's not why I didn't stop. So I brought myself kicking and screaming, to that curiosity and it was the best time. It just gave me time to think about how to make people successful and at the end of the day, that's kind of what we're always doing anyway. Okay, so it's super interesting. The identity crisis of moving from like something that's seen is more of a like respectable business profession, of where you're actually contributing value to Oh, you're moving to hr because you don't want to work as hard or your your kind of want to phone it in or something. And earlier we were taught in the pre interview we were talking about living in Richmond and that we both lived in the news I. You know, I used to live in the same neighborhood as you and when I was leaving San Francisco and I was about to move to Richmond, I was like, oh, how am I going to handle the like EGOIC identity of saying I'm move from San Francisco to Richmond? And just how wrong, when how wrong we usually are when our ego is concerned about something like that perception. Yeah, I don't know how much you watch basketball, but there's the player on the bucks and he just was gianness and he is talking about honey, you know, an edoes in it, when it's all about the rear view. Like how am I going to talk about or how I was? I talking about what I used to do or what I had done whatever. Like whenever you get in that mindset, that's when you know you're in that Edo mindset right. And I think when you're making career moves and stuff like that, like I catch myself sometimes, you know, well, what will people say? You're have I done enough? And and I'm like, oh, that's about. That's about me trying to validate how I spent my time or validate, you know, the impact that I had whatever. And whenever it's about me, it is unlikely about the business and it's unlikely about the people that are in that business. So I when he said it the other day, they just had it as a clip on ESPN or something, and I thought to myself, God, that's a great way of looking at it. Whenever you find yourself looking backwards and really trying to do all that assessing and whatever, like most of the time what that's about is you working through your own yea, which is probably a recipe not have an extraordinary career and make the maximum amount of impact and actually, you know, live a great life. Yeah, and it also, like I think, you get caught and regret, which I often find is a thing that is paralyzing, the fear of it or the fear of having it. So I you know, I think it's it's hard. He that has been on my mind ever since he said that and I thought it was a great way to think about how to not get yourself caught by by yourself for like a very describing it's really good. Yeah, that's really good. I'm curious, you know, you talked about, as a leader, wanting to support others in being successful and that being one of the impetus for moving into HR. What were some of the things that you were worried about your...

...ability to influence that and where, where did you find you were able to really, through your work in HR, influence that kind of outcome? I mean, I think one of the things that felt important to me was the type of environment that we were asking people to bring their careers to. Like, you know, I think that there have been days, some of which that are still today, where tech has not looked like the place that was really inviting to folks that, you know, came from different backgrounds or, you know, had different educational experiences, and it's like kind of like a funny thing that this pocket of innovation could then start to narrow what was acceptable from a people perspective. When we were trying to innovate. It like it is like counter intuitive that that's what you should do, and so I think that was one of the things that when I moved into like people practices, especially when I came to Maracci, it was like well, what, what kind of environment do we want to have and how do you actually go about architecting for that kind of environment, because I think some people are of the mindset that it just happens and it just doesn't just happen. If you let it just happen, a lot of times you get a lot of what you know want and, you know, working backwards and saying, Hey, who do we need to be as a business? What do our customers actually mean? And then we're in backwards and saying, okay, well, what kind of team do we need to have in order to be able to deliver on that market opportunity or those customer expectations or business goals, and then being able to say, how do we codify that in the least number of words so that we folks can know what it means to be a part of our community, know what it means to, you know, be a good workmate to someone, know what it means that you know like we all make use different language, but at the core we are orienting around a set of principles or values or wherever we describe them, that help us define what our community is like and help us define kind of what does good look like in it, and that level of orchestration and architecting for experience has always felt like the most important thing, at least to me, that you can do is a people practitioner. There are best practices in the compensation, there's some best practices in leader development and I think some of those best practices are have been with us this entire time. Like one time I was talking my dad and as like I'm having this challenge and he's like years ago, you know, and he's like this each our person told me this really great strategy and I'm like God, leaning over, can't wait to hear it, and he does really good one on months and that's like good to know the practices have been there. Now it's just a question. I've like how do you take those practices into an organization, right size them for the size of the organization and like right focus them for the business and the opportunity that you have out there? How do you take that and build a cohesive system that allows you to have a place where folks can really do their best thinking and their best work? And I don't know, like when I realize that that's what the work was about, I got even more excited and more curious around how you actually do it. So, when I look back at my time as helping with people, work at more rocky, I think codifying a culture in a set of values and really hoping to think about, like what are the systems that we need around that in order to make that culture actually real is probably the thing that I feel like I learned the most well about. So couple interesting things. So reverse engineering culture to fulfill both people being successful but also with a business needs, and I think that it's another threat I'm picking up in our conversation is that you really see people in culture as, and you know you said this earlier, as a core business function versus a you know, help the company knocket sued kind of function, and I'm wondering how you know, why was that so obvious to you? A little bit ahead of the curve?...

Right, it's I think it's a little bit more of a standard acceptable belief system that HR PEOPLE OPS is core to business success. But what had you see that from Day One? I mean, I guess maybe I I spent some time like building a nonprofit with fifteen, sixteen and seventeen year olds, like it's not like five years of my life doing that, starting with an idea and turning it into an organization with my cofounder. And I think when you start in a place like that and there's no there's no unlimited budgets, I think the first year we started with thirty grand from an organization that invested in social entrepreneurs in the same way that, you know, they were investing in entrepreneurs that were chasing for profit ventures. So they wrote a check some they said go do this thing. And when you start with limited resources and then you start with a population that people think of as limited in capability, you start to think about other ways of creating success or other ways of inspiring excellence or other ways of defining outcome, like you have to start at a different place than I'm going to write you this check and we're going to have this relationship that is traded. I give you money, you give me output. Like yeah, there was a little bit of that, like we paid these young people, so there was that trading. But like, we also realize the power of empowerment and we realize the power of, you know, delegating decisions. We realize the power of creating a culture where people felt like they had a gift and we just need to figure out like how we could deploy that gift against what we needed to do. Like a lot of the success that we were able to have was, yeah, it was a cool idea, but it was more successful because we created a culture where people could see themselves being successful and we could create sort of virtual cycles of success rate. You got better at this and we got better in the delivery that we had to the community, which at the time with these walking tours. You got better at researching, we got better at documented the history of, you know, under sort of communities. Like we created a culture around excellence and we created a culture and improvement and growth and, you know, we created a culture of, you know, being able to pull, you know, incredible output out of resources that, you know, other people would look at and go there's no way that that those group of people could produce this type of thing. And I don't know, like I think I've always just been like, oh, the power of the community experience is important and if I think back, I just knew it. I could feel it, like you could feel like the moment when the environment clicked and you knew you were going to get to outcome and whether it was like when I was volunteering in college and helping to run that organization or just like organizing field day when I was like in the fourth grade, like I think very early on. I recognize like the power of the environment and it could you know, I played rugby in college and we were not the best way team to begin with and we worked on the environment. There is an environment that comes along with winning and if you're really thoughtful about it, you can turn a rugby team that had not won a lot of games into a team that, you know, beat Smith, which was amazing at the time, and we had better players, but we had a different environment around winning and and I don't know like it. Maybe it's just core, like it's court to who what I think makes things successful. I always, I guess I always start there. So I'm imagining, like, you know, a poster of like everything I learned about running a multibillion dollar tech company I learned in community organizing and nonprofit empowering. You. I can almost draw back most of the things to that and the experience that I had working in a distribution center at Friedol like I can almost... just draw the lines right back to that. What I what I love about that is for the people that are working in a distribution center, that are running nonprofits. Of everything we do, we can be connecting the dots and we can be learning from and we don't know how those lessons are going to then be applied. I did later stages in our life and our career, and so I just I just love that you were always observing and paying attention and kind of assimilating the insights in the wisdom that you've then been able to scale. Yeah, I think it's unfortunate in the sense of it's the way that I see the world right, like I and you know, other people see it a different way and and sometimes it's interesting when you're sitting on a leadership team and you know, we kind of all come at it from different perspectives. But I always start like, I always start like environment and community first and work my way backwards. Even from a business perspective, I think of like well, well, what's the opportunity in the market? What is the community of users saying about the thing that we are trying to do? What is the problem that they are trying to solve? And if you start there and work backwards, I just found that, like your failure rate goes down, and you also just give yourself a little bit more room to experiment because you are kind of your kind of bat like thinking backwards a bit and you can get less tied to it has to be this way or its like, because you're like, oh no, I'm just starting with like what's out there and working my way backwards. I can get less stock and in feeling like I I know the way I'm I don't. Rarely do I know the way. Most of the Times I'm just trying to feeling my way to the thing that feels like it's working right, until we get to the point where it clicks and I go it doesn't matter anymore because I got the right group of people thinking about things in the right way and an environment that really supports that thinking of experimentation and trying and then retrying and rethinking that. Once you get that, I can like any problem, fine, like so. So, yeah, I don't know. It's just the way I see the world and I guess I got fortunate in the sense that it seems to be working for me so great. I got chills when you're talking about the power of the environment, because you know, I've often said that you take the same person and you put them in two different cultures and they're going to show up a different way. So the power of that environment's a to put kind of pull the best out of us is really amazing. And I love what you also said about helping people or identifying those young people's strengths, and I'm curious if there was like something that you did in helping people discover that for themselves, or was it more of you and the rest of your team pointing that out and others? What was the process for for helping people understand that they even had strengths and gifts and what they were? And, you know, like I have to really credit my cofounder with this. Her name is Carolyn Crockett, and she sort of had this way about the we just talked to people. We talked to them about like what they liked doing. We talked to them about, you know, themselves and how they saw themselves and where they thought that they wanted to go. Like we spent a lot of time just talking to the these young people, like and not in a patronizing kind of weird adult thing that sture you about the future. Yeah, like exactly, like, I know exactly must go to college and it has a looked like that. Know, but just listening to them, hearing what their ideas were, reinforcing, you know, great ones, and encouraging them, being willing to be like not the way that I would do it, but okay, like let's see what happens when you do that. And and I think what happens is that then people start to be like, Oh, I'm fully capable of making decisions, I'm fully capable of, you know, solving problems on my own, you know, and then all of a sudden, I think they start to recognize with each other, Hey, you know,...'re really great at this and you're really great at this, and like why don't we use that in order to get to, you know, these outcomes that we have to get to. I do think like trying to understands people strengths really start from a place of like where do you realize that you start to lose time? And how you structure that conversation for, you know, some of those fifteen maybe it's a little bit different than how you structure it for someone that works on your team, but like the principle is still the same. Like when do you look up and realize that lots of hours have ticked off the flock and you didn't notice. And I promise you, like, if you try to film more of your days with that than the other, you will do just better work and you'll feel better about the work that you did. So it is a lot, lot of conversation and I do think that, like I feel like I'm getting worse that conversation as I go along. You know, like I sometimes I'm like I liked myself more, I liked line manage yourself more than like exact self, because these line managerself always felt like there was always time for just more conversation. Exact self starts to feel like, oh, there's libbles, I'm going. I'm just like uh, but I mean about this thing, this burning platform, and this other thing and like and then you lose that space and that ease of just being like hey, how's it going? What filled you up and what didn't? And you know, like some of the questions that I think we're part of, you know, a part of fifteen five tekends and stuffing probably like what, like what gave you energy what didn't? Then I feel like that has been when I have feel like I had been able to unleash the best in people. It has been when there just has been that time to to do that initial exploration and that continuous conversation around this thing. I mean it's really interesting because, especially as a HR Tech Company and building technology solutions and education solutions around how to help people have better conversations. But the heart of it still is the actual living conversation. Like no tool can ever actually replace that continuous conversation and I think that is such a powerful lesson for all of us. Stay in the dialog, stay connected, stay curious, and it's hard for assumption. Yeah, yeah, and it's hard to stay in the dialog about like what fills you up. It's hard to stay in the dialog about that. The sometimes the further you on. You know, like I'm always like, how many conversations do I have around promotion versus? How many conversations do I have around growth? And you know, what gives you energy or what you're curious about, like I wish I could have zero conversations about promotions and a hundred percent conversations about those things, but I don't suppose that's how the modern corporate ladder works. One Thousand Five Hun five is the only evidence based people and performance platform for highly engaged and high performing organizations. Strategic HR leaders in all industries use the platform to win by improving communication, up leveling their managers and increasing company wide engagement. Learn more at fifteen fivecom right. Yeah, well, you'll, you'll really dig this. So why we're building out career hub in fifteen five, which is all about career ladders and helping people get promotions, but we're really starting with more of a self actualization perspective, more of the what what actually gives you energy? What do you love doing? What is the work that you do that you look up and five hours of passed? Because we really think that if you start there, you're going to have more high performers, you're going to have higher engagement personally, your career will be a lot more fulfilling. And you know, it's interesting because simultaneously HR teams are like, well, I really need the ladders too. So we know, like we we're of course providing ladders, but I love that because it's validating that if we really have more of the conversations...

...about what fills people's cups, then we're all going to win. I think that the I hate a career ladder and I know I've got, you know, a person that made people meet them and make you know grade structures and capabilities, a line and thing. I get it, like it's necessary. People need to understand what's required of a role and and ideally, if you do those things and people can build a career that allows them to see, how do I take the skills and capabilities that I have and maybe put it against different problems or something like that. So they are not without their place in my, you know, humble xhr opinion, but I think you're right, like what gets lost in the conversation is the power of lateral movement. What gets lost in the conversation once you start talking about a career ladder, is the power of taking a step back so you can learn about something new. I went from lawns, you know, being a you know, director and what was at the time a fortune five hundred company to taking an individual contributor role, like because I was curious about something and if I had been focused around a career letter, I would never have made those moves. Like it wouldn't have made a lot of the career moves because I'd have been too worried about what was I was like going a resume and did a like and the modern day thinking about career laddering and the modern day thinking around like how people should define success where careers are concerned, get us to a place where people have stopped chasing their curiosity and they've started chasing titles. They have stopped just like, you know, trying to solve really great business problems. They stopped doing that and they've started, you know, chasing, I don't know, rewards or whatever. Don't get me wrong, I'm a human and I like to get paid, but like, at the end of the day, that paycheck feels kind of hollow to me, regardless of how many nice things it can buy, if I wake up in the morning and I don't feel like I'm leaning into the things that they know I'm better at than the things that I'm not. So I recognize the importance of the career ladder and I don't want people to think that like being thoughtful about how jobs are constructed and being clear around the capabilities required to be successful in that job or things that you should not do. I just don't think that you should build a career around the ladder well, gets back today EGO. You know, if because because it's often of that perception, I know well what all other people think. If I move from a director role to an I see role, because that's actually what I'm curious and passionate about, it's like, oh, yeah, that's that might be a hit to the EGO. Yeah, what's you know, would you rather take a hit to your ego or suffocate your hole? WHOOF that makes it real clear. Thanks for putting it in those words of matter right that one, dad. Suffocate my soul. Definitely never optimizing for that one. Yeah. Well, I mean so much of the world, I mean, you know, like the the soul crushing work is such a common refrain and you know, I think, I think we're going to live in a much more beautiful world if we actually have soul enlivening work versus soul crushing work, if we if we think about environments, right of reverse engineering our company culture to be soul enlivening versus you go crushing or no, no, I guess sometimes it's good to crush that you go to wake up this this. I also think that like coming out, if we can even dare to say that that's what we're doing right now, but we're, let me not say that, continuing to experience the pantemic. It's probably a better way of describing it. I I think that has made a lot of people more clear on what is so refreshing to them. I think people have had to sit in isolation in some cases, and my case, and close proximity with a bunch of kids and my husband, and they, you know, just really had to think about what really matters and what time really fulfills them...

...and what things don't. They've reevaluated the relationship ups and try to like fill their lives with the people that matter most and for the people that matter to them. They have stayed in like they've made new, renewed commitments to keep in contact with those folks. There's a comedian, Tag Navarro, the God. I can't have her last thing, but she used to have and she has this podcast like don't ask Tig and in the podcast she talked about like she just changed her phone number and she only gave the number to people that she had been most recently in contact with. People are doing things like that. They are changing the number, they are rethinking relationships, they're rethinking their relationship with their employer and with their work, and I think if we come back at people with career ladders and Jah like like, we just will have we will not have read the room and we will have showed up to have a conversation that fos are just not not in not everyone, but I would say most people are not trying to come back to maybe some previous ways of working together with that in mind anymore, and maybe it won't be sustained and forever, but I hope that's not too I think a career led by curiosity and introspection and finding fulfillment is really ultimately down the line of win win for for all the people who do that and for the organizations who were lucky enough to get somebody who's come from that place as opposed to try to get the next title. And certainly, you know, it makes her an interesting career. I mean I had a very similar path and that I followed my curiosity. After starting an Ad Tech Company, ran off to Brazil and started a kitesurfing travel company before coming back to find fifteen five, and he wonders to this day why he left that business. Exactly. What was I thinking now? But it's amazing. It's actually things that I experienced on that led led me to have the vision for fifteen five and to be curious about how we could create workplaces that really did create an environment where people could thrive, where people were, you know, not just trading their life for a paycheck but were more fulfilled in the process. And so and that's really, I think, a big focus of why we've started career hub, with those things like teeing up conversations with managers to have those introspective dialog with their people to help them understand what they really care about, what they want. Yeah, I couldn't make gree more, which isn't to say it's easy. Yeah, no, and but I've had conversations with folks that they come in and they're just like, well, I don't know what I want and I go, okay, well, that's, you know, fine, that's a fine place to start. I can't pay attention for you, but you surely can pay attention on your own behalf. You know, they shove an og what would you do? I was like, that's fascinating. What would I do? Only matters to me like like for my career respective and I wouldn't necessarily suggest this path to everyone, but like there is this it's hard to look at yourself and it's hard to really try to hold a lens up that says what am I good at? When I'm not could at those things are really hard to do. I think what is easier to do is just to figure out how you can quiet yourself enough to pay attention to how your body is reacting to the things that you're doing. Where do you find ease, like where do you lose time, as I said before, where does your breath just come easier? And let that be the guide, as opposed to putting your head so much into that assessment of where your strengths are and you know where you are able to drive more value. I somebody once said that to me and we were working through like, you know, you have a little bit of it, like you're trying to work through a hard edge that I had, and he said, well, you know, like you can react to respond, but like one of the ways to notice where you're at is just to... attention to your full body. And I thought that was just such great advice and I thought, you know, I have said it to others, like if you don't know, it's because you are intellectualizing your feelings. Pay attention to your feelings and it's amazing. Well, and what I almost sacrilegious statement, like emotions and body awareness and paying attention to what your body is telling you in a corporate world. You know, and I think that, again, that's part of the transition we're making where the CEO of, I think Siscoe Roki is a multi multibillion dollar company, is advocating to listen to your body. Cool. Well, bring out the crystals here. She's yeah, and I do live in Sedona, so, yeah, I know all about the crystals. Okay, okay, I'd love to talk a little bit about your trend. You know your xhr story and you know your transition to choosing to go into the COE role and and what was that like? And how do you think about hr differently from your experience being a CEO and vice versa? How do you think about like if you could have gone back and told your younger hr self some wisdom that you've now gained in this experience, what would that be? It's a good question. I mean, I think the thing that I would probably tell myself is to build a system. Don't build programs right like you like. All of this stuff has to connect. It's got to connect to the you know, what you're trying to get out the door from a product perspective, of crust of the problems your customers are trying to solve. Blah, blah, blah. It's got to connect to that. It's gotta you know, your culture has to connect to that. Then your compensation strategy has to connect to your culture. Your planning process from planning from your business has to connect to workforce thinking. Your leader development motion has to connect to your culture. Like people, practices are not programmatic, their systematic, right. Can you break that down? Good, programmatic versus systematic? When you think about it, you're like, Oh, has this compensation program and then I have this leader Development Manager Training Program and then I have this listening strategy and I had this you know, and then and then you try to knit together the insights of those things in order to be able to help better inform you know where the business is going and how the business operates. But the reality of the situation is that, like this thing is a threaded system, like how you plan for your business long term or just annual or even quarterly. Your people practices have to be in service to just even that planning cycle and the thinking that has to happen in that planning cycle. Your employee experience practices are all up in that too, as in your leader capability and your leader development motions. Like for a leader to be ready to do those things that you have had to build some capability in the business in order to enable that, and you've had to build decisionmaking frameworks or strategies or protocols or whatever that allow people to take on responsibility and accountability in a way that allows for that planning process to work, DOT DOT dot. So that's just like one stream around how all these things have to be connected. And then you're listening. Motion has to come back around it and to say, is the thing that we plan to do in the direction that we have set out for the folks in this organization? Is it inspiring and creating engagement and, you know, you know, allowing people to really feel like they're working on something big? These things are not silod and I think sometimes when you come out at from a practitioner perspective, that's kind of where you're doing. You're like, Oh, I have this person that you know will give me the best practices in compensation, this other one that's going to give me the best practicing and business partnership, and you know this one and experience and this one in facilities and management, and duck done. And then you're like...

Oh yeah, like they kind of work together, kind of work together as not good enough, kind of Work Together, Aka kind of don't work together. Yeah, exactly right, like because the minute, from a person that's outside the practitioner's perspective, like they will see how those things have dissonance, like because you're going to ask them to do some stuff sometimes as they don't feel comfortable doing or feels hard or whatever, and I you know, when you get people in a moment like that, they're very happy to tell you all the reasons why this is not great. But you gotta almost do it like a sweater, where later the threads are all there and they're mad it together and when you start to pull on one, it should have an impact on the sweater, like it's start to pull this water apart. So I don't know that's a good way of describing it. But as a former practicer and now user of these practices. I go no, you gottamt this together a little bit better, and here are some of the reasons why. But I didn't spend enough time thinking about that. When you're ready to teach a master class of lessons from the Coo for hr practitioners or something, let us know will partner will get it. Well, we'll sell the heck out of it to our HR superstars community, because I really think that more of that integration of the whole system's business thinking with hr is what makes hr a truly strategic business investment, versus the thing that you're kind of embarrassed to talk about when you go to your high school reason. Yeah, I think the quote of my high school reading was I said you're supposed to be successful. I'm out. I was like Whoa good thing I could thing. I'm but really prepared myself for these moments. But yeah, I, yeah, I don't know if I go to any masterclass I was eaching in this thing, but I do think that, like it has been a bit of a gift to have spent that time in the people practices as I try to navigate other business problems, because I know I wish most people, more people had to have spent some time in the HR. Yeah, yeah, it just it just feels like a good place to spend some time and to have to think about these practices, not on a one to one relationship basis, but to have to think about them a bit more at that scale. What do you not miss about running HR and all hur practitioners out there? You know, just tell them now that it's a kind of like sick pleasure of like Oh, I would not miss that either, you know. I mean I was never a person that really loved the into the intrigue of employee relations cases. Never like I grew up in a house where people are like that private is private. You know. I've had to work through that in my life grow getting out of that. So I still feel like I take a little bit of that with me where I'm like, Whoa, this is a lot for your job, you know. So I like, did I love the interesting relations? Yeah, I just saw. I was always like like it was always in a state of shock. So the smallest thing shocked me. So I have to say I to know for folks that this is their work and they they get great pleasure of helping folks do those challenging situations. I am I'm happy to work through them one on one with an employee. I don't miss the aggregated data all that. Boy a NIS, this has been really wonderful. I just so appreciate who you are and you see the world well. Thank you for creating a space like this for folks to talk about this. I would have loved this podcast like eight years ago when I was really in the thick of this. But I believe in the power of community Ay, and I'm excited for the community that you're you're helping to nurture. So thanks...

...for allowing me to be a part. Absolutely. If anyone listening as follow up questions or wants to connect with you, what's the best way for them to find you? Oh Yeah, you can find me on Linkedin. That's kind of where I am. I have, like I'm not very good at twitter or any of these other things, pretty okay at Linkedin. So you can shoot me a number and a note there and will chat. Yeah, that's my best place. Great. Thank you so much, denise. For All our listeners, we'd love to warmly invite you to join us in the HR superstars community for resources, exclusive events and are robust group of people leaders go to fifteen fivecom forward slash community. It only takes a quick minute to join. We'd like to thank our guest Denise Thomas, our producer, sweet fish, media guest coordinator Sidney Lee, our executive producer David Misney, all of our fifteen five ers and all of our customers that make this possible, and thank you for listening. You've been listening to HR superstars, stories from the front lines of HR and people ops. Be Sure you never miss an episode by subscribing on your favorite podcast player. If you're listening on Apple PODCASTS, we'd love for you to leave a thoughtful with you or give a quick rating by tapping the stars. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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