HR Superstars
HR Superstars

Episode · 3 months ago

Creating Equitable Outcomes For Teams with Different Roles and Responsibilities


The question of equitable outcomes is an uncomfortable one. A proactive change leader will recognize that equitable outcomes require different approaches for different team members in different populations.

In this episode, we interview Jevan Soo Lenox , Chief People Officer formerly at Stitch Fix, about creating equitable outcomes across wildly different teams.

Join us as we discuss:

  • The emotional labor of the people function
  • Offensive and defensive approaches to the mental health conversation
  • The relationship between perfectionism and burnout
  • Achieving equitable outcomes with deliberately different methods for different populations
  • Challenging people leaders to be proactive change makers

For the entire interview, subscribe to HR Superstars on Spotify , Apple Podcasts , or Stitcher . Or tune in on our website. 

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The three principles that I would sortof use and you think about creating these cohesive cultures across these very, verydifferent team contexts, is one is look, you know, wherever you can dosomething really universal, that's, I think, both great for people.Then also, I frankly, just what powerful cultural symbols do that, toalso recognize that you're gonna have to top up. So they're going to bepoints in time where you're actually going to have to do some things are actuallyquite specific in service of outcomes that you want to actually say. I canlook anyone across the company in the eye and say in service of your supportingyou and your family and supporting your financial wellness, whatever it is. Rightmight be doing slightly different things because the context are different, but it's inservice of that kind of outcome. And then, third and wherever you candesign into structure and process in ways that will just hold you accountable. Butyou're listening to HR superstars, a podcast from fifteen five that highlights stories fromthe front lines of HR and people ups. Each episode will showcase fascinating conversations withleaders offering their unique experiences and advice for building an extraordinary company and culture. Let's get into the show. Welcome back to another episode of HR superstars. I'm Shane Metcalf, Co founder of fifteen five and our chief culture officer, which I'm actually so soon to be are achieved people and culture officer andtake on a little more responsibility of the whole bull organization. I really happyto have our guest here today, Jevins Sue Lenox, and Jevin is someonethat we've had the pleasure of interacting with through a couple of different events thatwe've hosted and have just gotten to know him over the last year or so. Jevin is the former chief people in culture officer. That's why I waskind of tune my horn that I'm like yes, chief people and culture officerfor the win. Jevin was the cheap people do in culture officer for stitchfix, which is I really cool company that I've actually used for my ownpersonal styling, and Jevin began his career at McKenzie, eventually leading their AsiaPacific recruiting strategy across twelve countries and has led held multiple people ops and businessleadership rolls at square blue bottle coffee and minted. He lives in San Franciscowith his husband, two sons and a large Air Dale terrier. Welcome tothe show, Jevin. Thank you so much for having me. So greatto have you and I'm also wearing a my stitch fick's shirt today also.Was a longtime customer. Took a break, but I think I'm not inspired togo. Okay, I get back, get back in there. But it'sfunny how like style, probably, I mean would be interesting this year, how I you know, stitch fakes did through the pandemic because it waskind of like, Oh, okay, I don't need to look good anymorefor a while. But yeah, curreya is how combining with I don't wantto go to the store and shop. So be interesting to say, understandingdownst each other out right. I'm really curious and I'm actually I also don'twant to take responsibility for a bunch of our listeners getting jealous or quitting theirjobs. But but you know, I understand you've taken a big break rightnow. Are you taking some time off? And I think that that's something thata lot of people don't think to do. They jump from job tojob, career to career, and I'm curious, for you what was behindthat decision and what are you learning about and maybe just share a little ofthe back story there. Yeah, I am taking a break. I finishedup with stitch fix last month after an incredible runs, a credible experience,and I would say I've been lucky to have taken a few different breaks inmy career. The first was for Grad School, which is kind of anatural one that kind of people go through, but I went to Grad school abit later. So most people go to this is school after only afew years of working and I went after seven years, and so is alittle bit more of a not I didn't have you didn't have to go.I wasn't the obvious sort of choice, and so I think the deliberation processof is this the right thing and, if so, what I want toget out of this experience for me in terms of my personal growth, itwas just it was is an interesting sort...

...of way of thinking about the choicethat I think stuck with me. And this is actually the second break I'vetaken in my career, not counting Grad School, where I've left a joband not had the next job lined up. The first one was four years agoand I left blue bottle coffee. and honestly that one was scarier becauseI've never done it before, but I'd sort of said, you know,blue bottle was that an interesting in my point. I had had kind ofput in a good run there and said, you know, I just think it'skind of the right moment. But it's a it's a bit of,you know, leaping into the void or to saying I go know so manyof us, I think, certain least you know, certainly for me,find so much meaning in work. You know, we kind of grind hardat it right, and so I sort of talked about is sort of,you know, this sort of a I'm just to jump out of bed andto start kind of you know, kind of going at it right and andnot having that, you feel almost a little bit lost. And but whatI found that first time four years ago was realizing that the most precious sortof luxury in life that that only you know, very thankful you think fewof us can get. It's time. It's sort of unadulterated time. Andsort of once you have that, what would you sort of do with yourself, like what would you allow yourself to think about? A reflect or justgive yourself back in life at sometimes, no matter how amazing a job,it tends to kind of fill the void pretty dramatically. And so so thisone is. I know how precious it is. I know how much Ithink luck and privilege allows someone to take a break like this, and soI definitely don't take it for granted. I do have two kids now,which I did not four years ago, and so it's a little bit andand we're still in the middle of a pandemic, so it's not quite ascarefree Galip anting break per se. But but I think the opportunity to justwake up and say, what do I want to get out of this day, this week, in a kind of really curious exploratory fashion. My myall this is three and he just started preschool and you know it's a bitCliche, but I think just sort of returning to that, there's no agendaright, just kind of what I want to learn, what I want tocontribute, what I want to experience. We just introduced a sabbatical program atfifteen five because, you know, it's you know, not everybody has theact, the the financial means to just take a time, take a couplemonths off in between jobs, and so we really wanted to create an opportunityfor people to not work for a moment and not worry about money and experience. Who Am I when I'm not working full time, which is a confrontingquestion right. It's kind of because it's easy to be on autopilot with work, like cool, this is this is my purpose and this is how I'mgoing to make meaning in my life, and so we take that out fora moment. I was like, Whoa, who am I when I'm not working? I think that's great and it's you know, it's not a surprisethat I think sabbatical programs. There may not be a macro trend, butI do think there are micro friend and I think companies just sort of recognizing, you know, when people are sort of jumping more rapidly from chapter chapterof you're the kind of organization that can give people the space to do that. The chance that they'll actually decide this is the place I want to stayas probably higher, and so Kudos to you all for leaning into that.Do you feel like there's been a bit of unwinding, you know, becauseI mean, you know, leading people, teams, lead, being responsible forthe human beings. The hearts, minds, bodies souls of the peoplein our organization were at least, you know, creating conditions to support themis not always easy, right. It's especially we're in Pathic we can sometimestake on a lot of that stress and I'm curious has there been kind ofunwinding detoxing from just the intensity of running larger companies? Yeah, the theemotional labor of the people function is not to be underestimate. I have Icome from a family where my father was in healthcare. All Chinese Americans,all my cousins are doctors. I'm actually the black sheep of the family beingin business. It's, you know,... I know a lot of peopleare really, you know, literally in the caregiving business in terms of interms of with it you today day. But the people function, I think, is probably one of the most analogous to that. If you've kind oflook at a non healthcare sort of business organization and the and the emotional laboris real and I think the emotional labor after they'd last year and a halfthat we've had it's only kind of gone multiple step functions from where it usedto be. I think for me the choice to step out and take abreak from when you and do this far along in your career. You know, hopefully you sort of know yourself well and and what I sort of feltin myself was a little bit of the fraying of the edges, because,you know, one of the things I really try to bring as a leaderis that, is the resilience and is the ability to sort of let alot of it wash off of you. And as I started to sort ofsee and feel of some of those edges free as and I'm like, Hey, I want to I want to kind of go out on my terms.I want to go out in a way where I feel like I'm still actuallybring my best self to the work and my band, my best off tothe team, versus, you know, burnt out and actually kind of runningfrom it, and so really doing it as a more sort of deliberate andselfaware choice. I was joking with some of my colleagues and the date me, but I'm a child the D S and so the original Beverly Hills ninetwo and I was very popular when I was kind of red. Yeah,yeah, it's so there's okay. So then you might get this reference.So there's this now sort of famous storyline where Kelly Taylor is in this lovetriangle between Brandon and Dylan and and finally, when they say, like who didyou choose, she says, neither of you. I choose me.Like this is a nice choose the moment right. Actually, I know it. I'm I'm just gonna choose me and take some time and you know what, I whatever I do next, the team that I end up next withis going to be the better for it. That's so good, you know.I mean it's really interesting, like I resonate with some of the frayingedges and you know, and it's like we're, you know, been doingthis, but David for ten years, and it's there's ups and downs ofstartup life and it's days where you're feel on top of the world and there'sdays when it feels like the weight of it is all crushing you and needing, you know, and then I'm not I might take a sabbatical next year. Actually, you know, me and David are like, oh, that'syou know, let's probably not take him ours at the same time. Butneeding to learn, like needing the necessity of how do I regenerate? Howdo I choose me in a week right, you know, how do I chooseme to really do go to the root of my praying edges and nourishmyself at the deepest level, can get help when I need help and dotherapy and really actually try to feel the intensity rather than just numb myself toit, and I think that's part of a we're all learning. I meanevery single professional has their own version of this right now, I think,and I'm curious as you go back into your next role and whichever company youfind yourself in, you know, how do you, how are you thinkingabout mental health of the entire employee population, maybe differently than you were two yearsago? It's a great question. It's a golden question. I youknow, I think there's been a real sea change in how companies and leaderstalk about mental health and relative to two years ago, where, I think, you know, to to three years ago, it felt more there area few kind of progressive leaders a bit ahead of the curve, but itwas sort of you know, oh, that's that's their pet issue, that'sour personals look good for them right, and everyone else it's sort of no, keep you know, work really hard and you'll figure it out. Right. And now I think this idea where I think there's both the sort ofoffense and defense move to it right. The I think, the offensive sortof saying hey, actually, by definition, high grow organizations and people, youknow, sort of contributing in big ways, that there's ortizations and leadingthere. Really they take a lot out of you, right, and ifyou if you really want to you know...

...those people that have the maximum impactthat they possibly have and for them to stick around, then you have tothink about how to attend to these questions that ineverably come up with the kindof the human condition. You know, and I think Brit large in thepast people probably thought about that more. It's just, you know, whatare all the benefits and books that we can sort of throw at people tosupport them in their lives and so on. Right, but if you just getto the core of the emotionality, if sort of how people are dealingwith life and stress, and you know some of that's from work and someof that's from stuff that's outside of work, it becomes you're only core to actuallylike how do we be a high impact, high performing organization full ofindividuals who are constantly feel at their best and the defense move is, Ithink, you know, organizations that aren't taken serious are just going to getleft in the dust. Yeah, I like it's just it's just it's nolonger, you know, that one or two kind a cool companies that aredoing it. It's now it's candidates ask about it, employees ask about it. You know, it may not be quite table stake chet, but it'sgetting there, m and so I think bring to that next organization, Ithink they're I've had a little bit of an awakening on that, I think, over the past year and both of my sort of what I see what'sgoing around in the world, and then just for my own personal journey aswell, just sort of, you know, how do I how do I createa company that I can be at for, yeah, five, six, ten years, right, and have that ability to sprint and recharge andtake space for myself and get support where I need it? I love thethe sprint, recharge, take space for myself where I need it. Likeyou know, that kind of feels like the formula, right. We wecan't sprint, sprint, sprint, sprint, sprint, sprint, sprint, sprint, broke, break my leg, you know, completely deplete my reserves. Yeah, did you feel equipped to do that well in your last coupleof roles, and how did you do that for yourself and encourage, youknow, some of the members your team to do that? Yeah, Iyou know, the risk of being work days, but I think it's agood think it's a journey rights, I would say, equips and find fullof full of the power. But I would say certainly I felt better atit that I did a number four years ago. Yeah, it might,Yo my what I left boo bottle coffee. One of the first things I didwas go on my first silent meditation retreat. Oh well, I spentseven days up in Sonoma at this amazing retreat. I highly recommend it.Spirit Rock, right for those in the Bay are your rock is wonderful.They're incredible. And so I spent seven years. Seven your Sud be aone day, one day, one day. Maybe. I don't know how muchmy family like that, but I spent seven days and you know,the first two days were brutal because you sort of realizes, at least forme, you know, your synapses are firing and you're just wired to wantto think about work, like I was like literally cringe to do list myhead like every hour. And and I desperately wanted to read the news,right and I need content, and I was just a my brain was justwired for like more and more and more process, process, process, likecreate, create, great, do something. And and I took I took therules y seriously, so I wouldn't write anything down, you know,no devices and so on. And and by the end of the first dayI had a massive migraine and if I hadn't told so many people in mylife that I was doing it, I was like I would have gone home. I can't do this, I can't about to do this. And overthe week, of course, right, I started to understand and and sortof develop these new sort of mental muscles. And and it's interesting because I thinkone of the things that I realized is in my psyche is what Icall achieve a fine and so, you know, I would, you know, sort of be, you know, a meditation and sort of thing say, you know, when I get back to the real world, I'm goingto meditate for an hour every day I'm not at sea, and I sortof like, Oh man, I'm already turning this into, you know,a gold medal sport, right, and so I think one of the biggestthings, and and that I did take back with me, and I spentactually a lot of time talking with my team at such tips about, Ithink it's really is this idea of you...

...can hold a high bar for yourselfand you can push hard and you can also, I think, be presentand to sort of, you know, I think, to sort of honestlyforgive yourself right when it's not always, you know, everything that you'd sortof put on the paper or kind of hoped it would be. And soI, you know, to spoiler, I do not meditate every day foran hour, but when I do, and however I do that right,it might actually be a sort of formal, you know, listen to head space, to sit down kind of thing. It might actually just be literally walkingthe dog and purposely not looking at your times while I'm walking the dogand and just, I think, recognizing there are lots of ways to sortof give yourself that space to rejuvenate and if you sort of hold it toit has to be exactly this way and asked to be this perfect, gleamingthing. You never way are going to be disappointed and frustrated. Right.I think allowing that that imperfection, you know, that permission to be imperfectwhile actually still striving for greatness, is such a funny juxtaposition. But Iactually think is kind of core to you know, sort of thriving in andthese kinds of jobs that are so hard and so demanding and and I think, be you know, creating a team culture and creating a company culture withthat people really feel welcomed and supported and want to be there for a longtime. It's so yeah, and so they're everyone has these different things,right. So for me that that give them sort of, you know,sort of spiritual nourishment besides the professional stuff. And so for me I love tocook, I love to get outside, I like to exercise or not supercreative, right, but again of recognizing that these things are actually criticalfor me doing good work, yes, right, versus sort of saying likewell, this next quarter is really rough, I got to achieve all these things, like I'm not going to work out as much, I'm not goingto you know, I'm not going to cook for my family. But likeit's okay, I'll get through it. Versus, Oh no, I'm goingto deliver ben work the entire quarter if I don't find a way to dosome of these things. And again, it may not be that I doit every single day. It's like not my perfect achieve a fide ideal,but if it's not something, the whole sort of aggregate declines. I meanreally feels like we're in a shift from thinking about things and they very segregatedway, like work is just work and you are a high performer at workand that's like the only source of high performance at work is raw talent anddrive and grit. And we're shifting from that kind of segregated model into amore holistic, integrated model of work, of understanding. WHOA sleep is socritical to performance? WHOA exercise, nourishment, taking a break from constant dopamine stimulation, so important for our best self, for our highest creativity, for ourgenius to actually come through in our work? And I mean it's itis. It's a real bit to paradigm shift for a company to start valuingand supporting the whole human being. Versus is just the one slice of thepie that we think we are going to get make money from right and Ithink also the you know, as you shared, you know, knowing yourselfand what it is for you, because everyone has, you know, similaritiesand that we all need this generally. But knowing you know for you it'scooking and getting outside and exercise. For someone else that might be the meditation, it might be something else, but I think until you take that timeto figure that out for yourself, you know, I think you're in asituation where, you know, you may just be compelled to just keep pushingand I've certainly been there in my life. Hey, David Hassel here CEO atfifteen five and I'm excited to announce that fifteen five virtual HR conference inpower is returning in two thousand and twenty one. This to day transformational experiencewill include a keynote from Harvard professor and author Amy Edmondson, who has madepsychological safety of focal point for all modern organizations. Psychological safety is also thetheme for Empower Two Thousand and twenty one.

It's not only the foundation of highperforming teams, but it is vital for staying resilient and strong through thechallenges of this new and let's be honest, strange decade. Please join US Octobersix to seven. That in power to connect with thousands of other HRprofessionals and learn from amy and our other fantastic speakers how to transform your organization. Registration starts in August. Sixteen. Register now at fifteen fivecom. SoI'm curious. One of the sources that I've always used for building culture andfor trying to push the envelope and create different things is my own personal experiencesof like, Oh wow, the experiences that have been the most beneficial andtransformational for me, that have helped me in my awakenings and my own journeyof development. How can I bring aspects of that to our company and makemake things available? And it's you know, it's always a little tricky, right, because we have our own biases and we don't want to just projectour own process and journey on to everyone else. We want to create optionalityfor people. But I'm curious, would you ever consider making, you know, seven day silent meditation retreats a benefit who? I love that question,I think and honestly, yeah, I mean I think. Maybe. Imean because I I mean, I like I'm asking because I you know,I've done a couple silent retreats and they're so wonderful and I've thought, wow, what, how wonderful would it be for people who have no idea aboutsilent meditation retreats, you know, that's just not on their radar, toget introduced and have easy on ramp do something something like that? I.I mean, I think what would be very cool. It's a little bitriffing off what we were talking about Sabbaticals, but also, I think we knowone of the things I think has been really interesting in the last fewyears is you a number of, I think, sort of for thinking progressivecompanies, sort of thinking about how do I how do I create the opportunityfor employees to personalize, you know, aspects of the experience or the waythat the company supports them in service of an outcome that actually, my hope, is relatively universal, right, and you know, typically, I thinkincreasingly around sort of fitness and health and wellness and so on, this recognitionthat if you sort of offer a universal thing that's sort of prescripted to everyoneand it doesn't actually speak to some people sort of situations or so on,you just end up, you sort of end up at the lowest common innominorsituation, which is kind of painful, right, versus sort of saying,you know, ten percent of the ten percent of the team is going tolove this and the other ideas going to be like what, no, absolutelynot, I want this thing over here, and that's great. Desid to beactually operationalized around that. And so it's your point. The reaction frommost of my colleagues when I talk about the meditation retreat is abject horror.I'm pretty sure I'd be a massive attrition driver. This was a good ofcourse, but your point. Yeah, I think some people would sort tobe very curious with but maybe didn't feel like they had ever been introduced tosomething like that or so on and and so if you sort of say,actually, I would love for everyone on the team to have some deep,meaningful experience around sort of recharge, reflection and wellness, you know, everyyear, and the company would support them in some way to do that,right. Yeah, yeah, and then your points sort to say for meit's this, for another executive it's this, and and then sort of have havethe team, you know, kind of go to the things where theirheart is most pulled and maybe have a yeah, many of those items.And you know, it's very funny because I had a very similar experience.I had done about a year and a half ago at the ten day silentmeditation retreat, and it was it was two days and I was also like, oh my gosh, this is this is how and by the end Ifound out it was actually going to be a twelve day meditation retreat and atthat point, on Day ten, I was like, Oh, thank Godit's going it's going longer because I didn't want to end. And then Davidsay I'm going to meditate at least thirty five minutes every single day like ayou know, I did. I did for an hour every single day forsix months and then I did, I did break the string and pretty good. Yes, I'm very impressed. I...

...did not and I did not getthere. So we have a annual company retreat and if we had our revenuetarget, we're going to go to Italy next year and I'm thinking, Oh, I'm going to make this a company wide silent retreat and how cool thatwould actually be to do a silent, silent meditation retreat with the whole company, because you know, I mean I don't think I could ever really pullthat off, but it would you really cool, I guess, drop intothe pure being space with the people that were in constant doing space with.Yeah, all right, I'll this is hilarious to entertain this idea like that. Sorry, on your team are going to be listening to this with Imean, I do try it. Always push the envelope. I don't knowif you were you caught window this, but a couple of years ago wedecided, like I was like what is one of the most incredible transformational experiencesof my life if, and that's going to burning man. You know,I've been ten times and it's just a profound experience. It really has positivelyimpacted my life in ways that I can barely even begin to describe. Andso I told David, I called up David. I was like, David, you know, this is one of the greatest experiences available. Why whatif we offer to buy people's first ticket to burning man? And so wecreated that as a company policy. And you know, and it was kindof edgy, right, because burning has a reputation of sex and drugs and, you know, debauchery and there's all these stories that people have about theexperience that our quote unquote, unprofessional and so but we did it and itwas really cool to say, Hey, let's break the rules a bit.And what's really funny is, you know, this was pre covid in two thousandand nineteen, and so we had two people. It was kind ofa lastminute thing and we had two people take us up on the offer andthey went and they both ended up quitting fifteen five to become full time Dj's. It's so I just think it's like hilarious, because some people would saythat I think it was a win and I'm like, I love that.So at Bekinsey, near the end of my time, they're there. hadbeen this, you know, really powerful sort of reflection exercise that you gothrough at this training, you know, kind of a couple years into yourconsulting sort of path whatever, and they had to discontinue the exercise. Thismust so might be her legend, but I believe peopleould all be us.Yeah, they had to discontinue the exercise because so many people had this amazingsort of reflection and then said it's time to leave agains. underlieve it's all, yeah, well and that is a really interesting dynamic. Right, ofdo we want people that are internally compromised by being in this role? Right, because I think as external compromises that we make, that you know,we have to make because we're live in a complex world, and then there'sinternal compromises if we're we're not actually aligned at our heart level with what we'redoing. And then so, as the organization that is kind of employing thosepeople, is it more valuable to keep them in that role that are notaligned in, or do we want to create space and help them in thatselfdiscovery and then they either choose to still be with because because there are aligned, or we liberate them to the next stage? Oh yeah, found.I mean all seriousness, that's that's exactly right. And I can never rememberwhich CEO this was, but someone was once telling me about a CEO who, when they met new employees, their first meeting, they would ask them, so what's the job you're going to get when you leave this company,which you know would terrify people, a task of about to get by sortof a Bodis and get fired? And, and he's real about it, hesaid all of them, you know, basically all of you are going toget another job at another company after the NCITY? Right? So that'sa great question. That or for me to be super real and know whatyour dream is and so that we can...

...make sure that this helps you getthere. And it's just it's such a powerful I mean I yet I think, you know, a lot of context would buy free people out, butat the spirit of it is amazing work. It's exactly right. You know,we we have left behind lifetime employment with a single company decade ago,right, but there's there's something about this sort of sort of spiritual overhang,I think in our culture sometimes a little bit right and and I think there'sthere's something in between that and the sort of, you know, deeply mercenaryeveryone's there for you know, you're in a half tour of duty. Don'tbother investing, they're just going to top to the next company and so onand so on. There's something, there's something in between those two that Ithink is is great for talent and great for companies too, but it doesrequire, I think, leaning in on both sides with a level of vulnerabilityand nuance that is is hard. It's really uncomfortable. You know, II talked to my teams a lot about how, you know, what managersnow have to do in conversations with their team members relative to to date myself, right, a decade ago, two decades ago. I mean it's youhave to have a lot of empathy, right, because it used to bemuch more straightforward and now, you know, the way that we, you know, sort of expect and hope them to coach on career and coach onidentity at work and dynamics at work and and and balancing, you know,sort of the demands of the job and the demands and sort of in theirpersonal lives. I mean it's just the the the role of the manager hasgone, you know, to a pretty far far dementia relative where it usedto be. This would make an incredible infographic and I'd be curious if you'dwant to, if you'd be down to collaborate with us on creating an infographicof like what management used to be and what management is now. Yeah,that'd be ground be really great. Okay, so you've played a really interesting role. You know, the companies, some of the companies you've worked athave had a really interesting dynamic where you have headquartered technology workers salaried, youknow, kind of high salary tech workers, and you have hourly wage workers,you know, stitch fix being the most recent example, and you aresharing some interesting things you did are on creating more equity between those two differentteams that had very different responsibilities, and I'd we'd love to understand how.How did you approach that, because I think often when people have those kindsof dynamics, you know, I coach a CEO who has a technology company, but then a bunch of people that work in oil fields, and soit's San Francisco programmers and North Dakota oil field workers, very different, youknow, a lot of diversity in that and they struggle with how do wecreate one culture that brings them together but also be a you know, treatthem appropriately and pay differences and all of that. So We'd love to hearyour thoughts on this big topic. So there's a few things I think abouthere, you know. The first I would say one of the reasons Ijoined stitch fix was that it was already in the DNA at them and whenI was interviewing in kind of one of the final stages, they brought meto one of our warehouses and I'd spent a lot of time at the headquartersoffice at that point, interviewing and so kind of gotten to know that facilityand gotten to know the team and so on. And I walked into thisfair house and they're giving me a tour and introducing the people and showing mesome of the the tools and how the algorithms sort of guide people the wherethey go into them. And and I looked over at the break area andI noticed that it was all the same snacks as headquarters and and one madea big deal out of it. I was want to notice it and Ibrought it up and they said yeah, and as and I kind of saidthat's not typical. It's like such a...

...small thing and not a small thing, right. And so I think there's this element of I mean I couldI could imagine it's like at the headquarters you have all the free snacks andall the you know, variety of you know, overpriced fancy tech work orsnacks, and then you have like a vending machine. You have I believethis is thy hour. The as a consultant, I've worked with a lotof companies, right, and so I I've seen just the very clear divideon how you think about some of those things. And so, you know, it's both a small thing but also, I think, just a very powerfulkind of cultural signal. And so there are these these moments where you, I think, you have choices around things that are, yeah, Ithink, relatively small on the level, but kind of day to day experiencesand the more that you can actually create, you know, sort of true equanimityacross these different teams and that they understand that, I think it's reallypowerful. I think the thing that gets tricky is, you know, Ipersonally really really love that the sort of continued evolution of diversity inclusion now includesequity, right, because this question of equitable outcomes is really uncomfortable. Butactually there is, I think, the real thing, right, and I'vevent I'll venture into territory here, but equitable outcomes sometimes requires very, verydifferent approaches. So it's actually not to sort of say I take an identicalapproach and I'm good to go right. You had to sort of think aboutwhat am I really trying to achieve here on behalf of the team. Andwhen you have, for example, in the case of stitch fix, hourlyFrontline Workers Warehouse, you know, warehouse is very physical work, very specificwork. You know, relative to engineers and data scientists, you have alot of flexibility in their time, with a lot of geographic buxability, locationflexibility. Right. You know, the the the sort of same snack thingthat I think it is great, it's a great cultural signal, but ifyou sort of just say I'm going to do these things exactly the same,I'm not necessarily going to speak to well, one of my what are these?What are the what is most impactful? What are these team members most worriedabout and that I can actually really really address? And so, youknow, just a very specific example. Again, no surprise, but youknow, when the pandemic first hit in March two thousand and twenty, youknow, six fix essentially shut down the business because we had the shutdown thewarehouses right every one of the geographies that we had, like every people comearound the country. We sort of said like this, we you know,we can't operate right fight by face of the things were first coming and thenas we're sort of working through the very not clear I'm sure that wasn't anystress for while the different states. You know, I you know, definitelywasn't working all nighters or anything. I've that. But so you get toa point where, okay, I think we can legally operate. Which shouldwe right? And and so you sort of working through that as well.And you know, and we chose to pay all of our warehouse workers fullwages for four weeks, right, and that is a that was a veryspecific intervention for that team that we did not, you know, we wentdoing any things for other teams, right, because it was very specific to theircontext, to their challenge. And then we actually went even further andwe created a fund for single parents working in the warehouses because the demands onthem without child here and so on, we're even sort of more extreme.And again that was something that we did as a very specific intervention. Iactually use the term intervention because it's kind of this delivered choice to sort ofgo and intervene around a specific situation. And you know, and I wouldsay that that isn't always popular. Right, it feels good, I think,to sort of do everything exactly identically, the same, but when you thinkabout equity across and these different team members in these different populations, Ithink sometimes it's create some interesting thought bought around. How do you problem solvearound like, well, what's the outcome like? What's the what's the security? What's this sort of sort of sense of belonging and support that you actuallywant to create here? And then, more recently, as we were creatingwomeny companies call Arg's, we call community sets, touch fix. So sortof I love that. There's something I've...

...always not liked about ARG language andit feels, yeah, Brid and it's horrible. I was dead steadfast.We're not going to call it an acronym. I mean just that we already,you already lost a game, right, and it's like and it's like employeeresource groups, like what that ethic is? That exactly? It's likethe last thing that I want to be part of, right. It's soso we created these communities, but I'm stealing this, by the way.I'm like immediately telling my pop stating is it is not a stranger. Iwould love, I love for that to proper, switching your rites to communities, because so much better. Fifteen five is the only evidence based people andperformance platform for highly engaged and high performing organizations. Strategic HR leaders in allindustries use the platform to win by improving communication, up leveling their managers andincreasing company wide engagement. Learn more at fifteen fivecom one of the things thatwas really hard, as you know, I and others were kind of creatingthe diversity, equity and inclusion strategy of switch fix, was I, forprobably obvious reasons, sort of said well, whatever we do, it has tohave a really effutable approach across our team. And my experience of Vargsand so on, and what I've seen a cross sort of other industries isthey tend to be very headquarters focused, they tend to be very knowledge workerfocused, right, and as I sort of poked around and talked to peopleat other companies with lots of hourly employees, what I basically always found was thesemechanisms were not sort of open to them, right, not participatory because, you know, you had to. How would you do that in away that sort of accounts for all the challenges of scheduling, in time andso on? And so most companies just didn't try, which I thought waspretty unacceptable. But to be real, right, why do you think theydidn't try? No, I don't want to speak on others bath but Ithink it is hard break because I wouldn't say that we solved everything, althoughone thing that we did I'll talk about in this that kind I think wasreally important around how we thought about the leadership rolls. But I think getshard and I think also, honestly, unfortunately, I think some organizations theyjust sort of focus where the noises and so they focused on the highest paid, hardest to recruit and retain, although that's starting to change her and hourlyas well, and I kind of they just kind of live there, right, and they did. I don't think they challenge themselves to really think moreexpansively about really what we're trying to achieve. And so one of the things thatwe did then at Stich fix was we we had this selection process foremployees to become leaders of these communities, the cockpit, compensated roles actually fortheir you know, for they it sort of additional time that would be spendingon these responsibilities because ultimate we said, you know, you are making thecompany a better place and we actually should recognize that in a formal way.But we acquired that one of each of the two colleagues of the communities hadto be from a majority our organization, and so the design prompt, ifyou will righte was is not to say that I or you know the otherleaders involved had figured it all out, but was to say if you ifyou literally create the two sort of leadership pillars of each of these communities andone of them is immersed in that context, there's basically no way that you cankind of, you know it, sort of just not sort of createsomething that is truly a proople that really speaks to those teams and make surethat you're engaging those teams in thoughtful ways. And so I think there's this peacearound, you know, sort of zooming out. I think you knowthe three principles that I would sort of use and you think about creating thesecohesive cultures across these very, very different team contexts. Is One is look, you know, wherever you can do something really universal. I think bothgreat for people then also, I frankly, just what powerful cultural symbols do thatto also recognize that you're not to top up. So they're going tobe points in time where you actually going to have to do some things areactually quite specific in service of outcomes that you want to actually say. Ican look anyone across the company in the...

...eye and say in service of yoursupporting you and your family and supporting your financial wellness, whatever it is.Right, might be doing slightly different things because the context are different, butit's in service of that kind of outcome. And then, third and wherever,you can design into structure and process in ways that will just hold youaccountable. Right. So it's just I said, you know, we sortof said the simplest thing that we can do is make sure that the leadershipof these groups is represented and they're going to be the first one is toraise their hands and tell us you're missing you're missing the plot on this,you're missing it on this, so on, and here's how we can actually getbetter. Wow, I love this. I means so wealth thought out andI love how you've really kind of considered and taken in, you know, made it possible for these these groups to participate because of all the barriersthat would naturally kind of be in the way. We're a bad at atime. One last question. I'm curious. You know your you are clearly avery progressive HR leader and you're on the forefront of a lot of thingsand thinking about things differently. What's one thing you'd like to see the kindof your space in the industry of HR and people, ops, of allall of even further in the next five years? Who? I love thatquestion. I would love to see the function and the leaders within the functionreally become more proactive change makers. So I think one of the sea changesthat I think has been great to see is, for better for worse,the multiple crisis of the last, you know, sort of a couple ofyears. I think I've sort of re elevated the function, but in,I think, in a crisis driven kind of reactive way, right, andso, nevertheless, I think many teams and many leaders are at the tablein a way that they haven't been before and so, you know, I'lltake that, I guess. But if you really think about the challenge ofthe business world that we live in now right where things are so dynamic,companies are evolving so rapidly and really the best companies in the best CEOS arealways trying to think two steps ahead and look around the corner and and reallyproactively evolved their organizations. And of course that means business strategy and so on, but usually that also comes along with, you know, how the organization functionslike how it runs itself, how it structured, like who the talentis and so on, and for, you know, hr to actually beon the offense as a true partner in that. I think, you know, in the past they've sometimes been left out of the equation almost completely otherthan to rights between the orders, right. And I think the transformation to theCFO roll over the last few decades. It's is a perfect sort of analogyof this where, you know, a few decades ago it really was, it really was a sort of big FBNA leader, right, just reportingand analytics and and now I think any company that doesn't think about the CFOis a true sort of transformational business driver. And partners the CEO, you knowthey're just toast and you you sort of can see the glimmers of wow, the HR leaders of the future will be that, or should be that. How am I thinking about the next three to five years in close partnershipwith the CEO and how rapidly or dramatically does the organization need to keep sortof transforming and changing to be on offense in a world that is very,very fast? Jevin, this has been super brilliant. In just that lastcomment on CFO we're hiring a CFO right now, then you just helped me. You got me inspired about raising the bar of making sure they are thattransformational, proactive role. And I love, love the analogy. It's really,really good one. So we're at a time. I really appreciate thejust just inspiring conversation. Love, love getting insight into some of your journey. If anyone wants to stay connected follow your work, hire you. Youknow. How can they get in touch or how can they follow your work? Yeah, Linkedin is is super good...

...for that. So feel free todrop me a line there and yeah, and stay in touch. I don'tthink anyone has ever said anything other than Linkedin. You know, I've Hey, if you want to follow so and so, find them on Linkedin andinstagram. But I think if you want to just look at my dog andthinking, it's probably less how putty. professially, I am curious about yourdog, you know, after reading your bio. Okay, so if you'rea people leader, you can check out our HR superstars community, which evenactually I don't know if you are familiar with or not, but we havea community of progressive HR leaders and so we would love to have all ofyour you listeners, come join our community. You have thousands of h our professionalsgathering for amazing events and Resources, and you can find that at fifteenfivecom forward slash community. Would like to thank our guest jevins sue, ourproducer sweet fish, media guest coordinator and overall superwoman, Sidney Lee, ourexecutive producer David Misney, all of our fifteen five ers who make this possible, all of our customers that make this possible, and thank you for listening. You've been listening to HR superstars stories from the front lines of HR andpeople ops. Be Sure you never miss an episode by subscribing on your favoritepodcast player. If you're listening on Apple PODCASTS, we'd love for you tolove a thoughtful with you or give a quick rating by tapping the stars.Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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