HR Superstars
HR Superstars

Episode 21 · 2 months ago

Blowing Up Human Resources: The End of Industrial Age Practices

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Many HR practices trace their roots back to the industrial age — an era where management practices were inspired by the practice of slavery and created on a foundation of distrust towards workers. 

If you’ve been doing something for over 75 years that’s sourced in suffering and clearly no longer working, it’s time for a revolution. 

In part one of our interview with Nancy Hauge, Chief Human Resources Officer at Automation Anywhere, Nancy explains why she’s on a mission to rid the HR function of every outdated, industrial age mentality that’s holding it back. 

We discuss: 

  • The roots of industrial age management practices 
  • The neuroscience of leadership 
  • Humanizing work through automation 
  • Creating customized HR solutions for each individual 
  • Skill sets needed to be a manager of the future 

For the entire interview, subscribe to HR Superstars on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or Stitcher. Or tune in on our website. 

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for HR Superstars in your favorite podcast player.

They came out with family farms andwent into these industrial setups the manufacturing world that was beingcreated. Then there wasn't a lot of process. Therewasn't a lot of understanding about how to manage people in those environmentsright if you're, managing your kids and your cousins on a farm. It's one thing,but you bring them into that environment and so, unfortunately, thefolks at that thought g. How do you manage you know strangers they lookedto slavery and said how are people supervised? Howdo you keep people in the work environment and unfortunately, some ofthose behaviors moved into management behaviors of the early industrialize you're, listening to HR superstars, apodcast from thirteen five, the highlight stories from the front linesof H, R and people ops. Each episode will show case fascinatingconversations with leaders offering their unique experiences and advice forbuilding an extraordinary company and culture. Let's get into the show, welcome back to another episode of HRSuperstars and we've got a real treat for you. Today, we've got Nancy Houge.Did I say that right Nancy, you GIT IN DE? Not it excellent, but you so nancyis the overseas all functions of everything, people so chro or c Po, inother words, for automation anywhere. This includes talent, acquisition,communication, total rewards learning and development. An employee engagementNancy brings more than thirty years of experience and senior leadership andmanagement consulting roles and in the some of our pre dialogues. We alsolearned that this is Nancy's last role and that Nancy is preparing to exitfrom the professional world, and so we just thought this is such an incredibleopportunity to learn from some of Nancy's wisdom and the learnings andget to take a journey with fancy to see someof what she's seen and some of what she sees for the future of this. This wildworld of HR welcome to the show Nancy. Thank you so much it's really. It'sreally fun to be here. Thank you for inviting me so dancy, one of the thingsthat I thought was so cool when, when we were talking about what do you, whatdo you want for the world of HR and you were like well? Actually, I want toblow up H R, and so should I call the FBI or you know what what's? What doyou mean when you say I want to blow up each other, a quick call, the personnelpolice exactly call hr exactly exactly yeah. I think that HR has evolved from,I think some pretty nefarious beginnings and it it doesn't do enough that the function,the folks in the function. Don't do enough self, explain self exploratorywork to say what are we really doing here? What what? What should we beproviding to the organization and to the people that we serve? We have it'san organization that often defaults...

...into what its customers are asking forversus what is really needed, and so that's yeah I'd like I'd like to I'dlike to blow it up a bit that that's good, the the various beginnings of HR,because I think this is a very under explored conversation around. How didwe get to HR? You know, like the world didn't just suddenly come into beingone day, all of the systems and processes and mindsets and beliefs thatwere operate from and just take for granted. They all have their roots in adeep history, and so what do you mean by the nefarious roots of HR? Well, youknow again the dawn of the industrial age. Suddenly people came off of familyfarms, particularly in the in the northern part of the United States andand Ukit came out the family farms and went into these industrial setups themanufacturing world that was being created. Then there wasn't a lot ofprocess. There wasn't a lot of understanding about how to managepeople in those environments right if you're, managing your kids and yourcousins on a farm. It's one thing, but you bring them into that environmentand so, unfortunately, the folks at that thought. G. How do you manage youknow strangers they looked to slavery and said how are people supervised? Howdo you keep people in the work environment and unfortunately, some ofthose behaviors moved in to manage the behaviors of the early industrial ageand so whether it was locking people into the workplace that ended up withthe shirt waist fire and changing those laws making certain that a supervisorsat above just like the overseer sat on a horse to oversee the plantation? Thatsupervisors initially sat eighteen inch platforms above the worker, so theycould see them and supervise them, because you assume that the work thatthe worker didn't want to be there, that they were going to flee and so awhole bunch of things were created on the industrial age. The work placebeing a separate thing from your homes, the workplace and your employmentrelationship being such a very different relationship than anythingelse. You had in the normally evolved world, and so it's all artificial andit was all based on the mistrust of people, won't stay and do this work.The they'll try to flee they're going to try to steal time from me and by theway. Why? Wouldn't they? The work was deadly boring. It was drudgery, it washorrific and while people will argue with me that the industrial age createdenormous amounts of jobs, I'm telling you- I don't want my grandchildrendoing many of them. The world has to change, and so I am on a quest in thelast years of my career to disabuse us of every single industrial industrialage mentality that we use in the workplace today and whether you know inthe evolution of HR from trade union. Well, let's start with folk who justwalked around with clubs. Keeping people inside the workplace to trade.Universas literally was a jar back then that was a car back. Then theyliterally were the leg breakers, and so...

...the people who could didn't get intopolice forces to make certain that you know runaway slaves were returned,which is what the place originally were created to do. Those people ended up inthe private industries as kind of the the knee cap breakers to keep people intheir in their roles. But then, of course, trade union started to emergeand you have people who are trade union avoidance same guys with clubs to tradeunion compliance. Now this started them into okay, we are going to have tocomply with and stuff, and then it moved into well say the world warswhere we went from. We started looking at more volume processes andproductivities, and all that kind of stuff born out of two World Wars thatwe still have practices today inside human resources, organizations thatwere born out of world war. Two- and so you know- and I say anything you'vebeen doing for seventy five years- you should probably think about again. Solet's take Pampero mance reviews precisely designed for nineteen yearold boys, and yet we are still using same kind of philosophy and format togive well educated knowledge based adult workers, feedback about how theymight do better in their both I'll have to stand up for ourselves, because thatis that is. Our mission is reinbert these things of like what do we? Howwould we actually design a performance review based on twenty first centuryunderstanding of neuroscience? Psychology? Positive Psychology,humanistic psychology, you know the deep, intrinsic motivation- I mean yes,where it's so ripe for Reinrich, well and Saya want to take. I want to theytake it, take a moment because that's pretty heavy what you just laid out,it's a as they say a tough bitter pill to swallow to realize that HR, whichyou know so many of us love, and we feel this kind of shoot. Almost thishumanistic calling to elevate people's lives and help unlock their potential.But if we don't address the shadows, we don't go, look deeper, underneaththe top soil at the corrupted roots that this came from and again I meancorrupted roots. I mean it's hard. It's tricky to put our value systems on thepast, of course, because at different stages of development of humanity,different value systems that are very different than what we have now. But ifwe don't examine those things is no wonder we're looking at the results wehave today with you know, sixty seventy percent disengagement in that country.That's exactly right, and so you were precisely correct and the whole conceptof performance or you performance review. We live in the most Fadak richenvironment that has ever been seen on earth. I mean think about it, you getinto your car and it tells you if you're using your gas mileage correctly.It gives you all sorts of data. You correct your performance in a moment bymoment when you're in your car, and yet we don't have those same kinds ofdashboards and tools to tell the human beings that work with us, how they'redoing minute by minute or do we again...

...you we there's enormous amounts offeedback around people. I think the everybody knows how they're doing everysingle day, but we don't make it very safe to acknowledge it. We don't makeit very comforting in terms of saying will give you health and support. I wasjust having the conversation with somebody last night about the fact thatone of our the great flaws in all performance feedback- and I love thefact that your praise doesn't have a euphemism, but criticism does we callit fee bat? And so, when you give someone feedback, you have to give them.You know some hold up a mirror and say this is probably not the reflection.You really like to see when you do that. The neuroscience says you know they'regoing to shut down in some ways. That's all they're going to think about. Youhave got to make certain that you've got some support network around them.That says, look! Here's I'm going to help you! My rule is: Don't givesomebody feedback unless you've got two or three ways you can give them supportto change, because change is hard, but we we don't build that in to processes.We don''t teach people how to do that. We teach them. Tell them good news.Tell them bad news! Tell them goodness what we now know from manor scienceperspective as they never hear, the goodness. When you tell him the bad,you need seven days between a good and a bad message, frighten you and always leave with thegood make certain. They understand that and then come at them with it. Buthere's what we need to change, but you better understand that if you give themany more good feedback after that, they'll never hear it. My my friend ain negative so much more thoroughly than it takes in positive. My friend,rog kumari nogi was explaining it to me that when we, when the brain goes intofight, flight or freeze, which is what happens when we get usually getcritical feedback and that's where you know buddhas or something the ear drumactually closes, like literally the physiology of the ear like changes, andso we literally can't hear as well. I hear it yeah. I've got a good friend,brilliant guy named phil dixon, and he is one of he's, a he's, an expert onthe narrow science of leadership and he uses a fabulous example. He says youknow if i come by in the morning and say: hey you free at four o'clock aweek chat. I've got something i want to talk to you about you're, like yeah.Let's do that if your boss comes by at eight nam and says, can we talk at fouro'clock you're going to have anxiety? The rest of your day, it's automaticthat you think. What's that about, what's going on, am i getting negativefeedback? There is a whole neuroscience once you change the level in anorganization. The reaction by people to that level is going to be one of someanxiety and fear born directly out of that history. I discussed with you moredirectly out of how we set up the role of supervisor manager, which is toobserve from above, and tell you what you're doing wrong as opposed to youknow. Maybe we'll talk about the israeli army model of leadership, whichis in total service. Yes, sir, you right, because because of course wewant to be looking at not only do we...

...need to confront the reality of thefaulties system. Let me i mean you know i mean they were effective right i meanall of these. Things were effective for what was the value system for a periodof time? That's right periods of time, and yet, culturally, we revolvingthere's there different cultural, memes and value systems that play and if wewant to create work places where humans, human beings thrive. We reduce the fear,we increase the collaboration, then we need to like a intellectual honestythat the systems we inherited might have some corrupt code in that right atthat, and then the alternatives from changing from what these bad systems towhat these better models right. We also have to acknowledge the evolution ofhuman beings and while we think evolution takes a very long time, if wecompare the work forces from the ties which was largely high school educatedand then we went to war and we ended up with twenty five to two thirty: fivepercent, more of the population having a college education based on the gibill and then and but that generation was highly institutionalized. They'dspent forty five years inside the military and so organizations could setup those militaristic structures and people knew how to maneuver. They knewhow to thrive in them. Then you come to the baby boomers, which is the mosthighly educated population on earth, the largest population that everexisted on earth and what happened there is lots of college degrees, lotsof higher expectation without the institutionalization of the military,and so now, and the doctor spot on demand, you know, is immediate.Gratification is not fast enough. All of that that coming into the workplacechanged entirely. Suddenly, we didn't have enough opportunity to promote allthose baby boomers, so we created language around we're going to help youdevelop and we created all sorts of development programs and things toenhance and enrich you without necessarily moving you up to the top ofthe management scale. We did all sorts of things in order to make certainpeople stay, engaged that changed hr that changed the evolution of humanbeing. So now there's greater demand. We have greater demand for those things.We have greater demand for autonomy, there's all sorts of things that movingfrom that need is population to the forties, military and colcato to thebaby. Boomers change forever. Now what do we have? While we have themillennials? Who don't remember a time when the world was not fraught with awar going on at some some place in the us actually having come under attack?They have one frame of reference and we move now into a population that, as wesay, has never been lost. They've had gi gps with them, always they use moresophisticated technology, running their games at home than they're offered attheir desks at work and that so that is changing the whole workplace. It's notone generation to another. It's this whole generation shift over fourgenerations that has produced the...

...population. We have to day. They demandsomething very different than their fathers, their grandfathers andcertainly their great grandmothers demanded. Fifteen five is the only evidence basedpeople and performance platform for highly engaged in high performingorganizations. Strategic hr leaders in all industries use the platform to winby improving communication up leveling their managers and increasing company.Why engagement learn more at fifteen five com? I don't know if you've shared thisexperience, but it really feels like we're living like this next decade. Allof these things are converging and we're in this. This moment,momentous sea change of new models are popping up like wildflowers, but they're not they haven't taken root for from through the wholeforest. Yet absolutely we do and we don't. We are unclear for us. You knowto use your analogy, were clear about how we're supposed to feed andcultivate. What's the change, and certainly coved with the the work fromanywhere in position that it created, moved us to the tuns very rapidly right, it accelerated thethe concept of workplace by it le like ten years, you know, and it's the inone way is for me: it is the only silver lining of ovid is that itshifted the concept of trust in the employee. We now know we can trustpeople to do their jobs and your entice yes from anywhere. I don't have to hurdthem into an artificial environment in order to know that they are going to beproductive and innovative and committed and accountable. All those thingshappen when you allow people to work from anywhere what and i think about it,a lot from the belief system perspective. You know that it was abelief that human beings aren't trustworthy, then, because you'reliterally forcing them against their will. You need to entrap them. You needto manipulate them. You need to dominate them right and exactly rightbecause of that's coming from a belief system of the way the world works andalso colonialism and all of these other dynamics. That are that you know,beliefs produce actions which produce the systems and structures. We havethat's right and then there's the unconscious things that occurred andone of the unconscious things that really has occurred to me as i've movedinto the age of automation, is that you know human being for the industrial agewere really used, as i would say, servants to the technology servants tothe capital equipment, almost like human resources, exactly humanresources, a phrase that i hate so much. It sounds like people are natural gasor something. So we actually used to have a a meet up in the bay area thatwe did called humans, not resources, exactly perfect. Well, you know the thewhat's occurred is that what i it's...

...dawned on me is that people wouldenormous amounts of money and capital equipment and whether it was the earlystage mechanical equipment that they were using for the industrial age rightup till to nat till now, when its huge investments in software solutions,human beings are ancella to it. We are, we are like you know, we are in serviceof that capital equipment, and you probably heard me say before. If youdon't believe me think about this once the last time you saw a company getinto trouble and put all of its capital equipment out in the parking line andsaid anybody could come, take it as opposed to wince. Last time you saw acompany do a rift when they were in trouble and put all of their humanassets out in the parking lot and say anybody could come take it. So that is,we are still in a in a less human centric environment. As long as wevalue that capital equipment over the human beyand, so that's you know again.Automation helps change. That automation helps make people far morehumans that makes the world form or human centric by making us no longerservants to the technology, but the technology serving the humor ininteraction. Well, i think this is really interesting, because you knowthere's definitely a lot of speculation. Fear two sides of the camp ofautomation, ai, is going to enslave humanity or automation. Ai is going toliberate humanity, and you know. Obviously i think you probably fallinto a little bit more of the like optimistic, hey automation can liberatehumanity, help humanize the work force. Yes, i mean, can you can you share alittle bit around what automation anywhere is doing on that front and whyyou're optimistic that this will help humanize or how it helps it be more?Yes, absolutely you know when you take away the robotic work and you leave thework that human being should do. You know i was say we have many missions atautomation, anywhere that all serve a big, the biggestmission w, which is probably releasing human cranial capacity for the firsttime in two hundred and fifty years, getting people out of functioning asrobots and returning human beings to do what human beings do best. Thinking,learning caring innovating. You know developing. We are not really good at being robots,we can do it, but we make mistakes. We get tired of brain wanders who wants todo more things and which is why all those repetitive roles really havenever been suited to human beings and why they had to be supervised as theywere, because we rig we don't they're, not enjoyable, it kind of who wouldn'trun from that work. So and the truth is- and you know i kind of love this- i oneof the colleagues one of the founders from automation anywhere said to me oneday. You know if i ask you what you do you're going to tell me the mostcomplex thing: okay, so i'm the chro, i run a jar and i think big loftythoughts. I said vision i said strategy. I do all that, then you ask me, but youknow what else do you do? You know when you're not doing that? Well, yeah, iroll up my sleeves and i do comp work...

...kind of. I love an excel spreadsheetand i do i love getting my fingers in that and then what's what else do youhave to do? That's what is the bottom? Third? Well, the truth is there's a lotof you know, kind of mucky stuff that i still have to do, whether it's cleaningout emails that i get unsolicited and there you know they fill up my mailboxand confuse me or whether it's calendering stuff or you know i thestill much work in her personal drama with employees, but the stuff that i'mtalking about is is stuff i could automate and if i could automate thatprotem third, what would i do with that? Thirty percent of my time that you giveback i'd, probably apply it to the most complex thing which often people thinkof when you think about the most complex thing. You do you often think.Well, that's almost like the frosting i've got to do all this crap work. Theni've got to do all this monday and work, and then i finally get to do what isthe most intriguing to me well, but through automation you can flip it. Irefer to it as my. If only list no age or personal ever said, you know, ifonly i didn't have to do this executive development. I could get back to dataentry, an analysis right. That's how you think the truth is once you takethat data entry, an analysis and put it behind the human being with the with abot you get to do that more innovative work. Now people often say to me youknow, but what about the retooling re skilling of people, not everybody's,capable of creative work- and i say every time i've written a bot and wehave forty or fifty running in hart any given time. Every single one hasallowed his taken camouflage off of some human capability that i hadcovered up with the industrial agement ality, and so we wrote a bot to countheads and the young woman who did it took her hours and hours a week becauseit was very complex in our company once we wrote rodebach do that she non, wentand created a spectacular intern program, and so i don't have to retrainher for it. She it's been in her head, she'd, be thinking, if only had time.I'd get to that. If only i had time, i could do that. We gave her the gift ofthe time and she created a great value proposition for us every single timewe've written a bot. We have created something with a more value to thehuman beings that work with us. One of the the tenets of our managementphilosophy in fifteen five is the idea that everybody everybody's, a genius.Everybody has genius yeah and- and so you know, i don't know. If you'refamiliar with the bottle of like zone of genius, we have zone of genius. Wehave zone of excellence and magazne of competence and son of incompetence asthe the t by two and that how do we uncover our own zones ofgenius so that we can spend at least more time? Maybe we don't get a hundredpercent of our time in there and what i'm really hearing you say is part ofthe vision you have is where we get to automate the zones of incompetence. Thezone. Even the zone, is a excellence, yes, because that zone of genius, aswhere the work that we do feeds our soul gives this energy. We leave thework day more energized than when we walked into it exactly intrigued aboutcoming back to morrow on being able to...

...just solve the problem that youidentified for yourself. You know here: shubar ceo uses this great analogyabout people's resistance and concerns and fears about technology. He said youknow, if you ask me what the weather was in two thousand and five, i i dogoogle it. If you ask you what the weather was in two thousand and fifteen,i go to my smartphone and look it up to day. I say: hey lex, it what's leatherto morrow and i don't necessarily lose. I contact with you now imagine if thatwas the case of everybody. You have inside your company that has theirfingers on the keyboard. If you could take their fingers off the keyboard andturn their face towards your customer. Yea turn there or in r turn your facetoward the employee population. We're trying to keep engaged head down withyour fingers on a keyboard, never creates engagement. Surveys, don'tcreate engagement, human beings, talking to human beings, human beings,engaging with human being, that's what creates engage, and so that's why i sayit's a far more human centric world now e. The other thing i'll tell you isbetween hiding and getting rid of that robotic work, and then this pandemicworld, where we've lived in this zoom environment, i've got a background upto day, but most days you can just see my home office. I've now spent a yearlooking into people's homes, it's impossible for me to see them the sameway as when they were a herd of employees in an artificial environment,and so i believe that one of the ways a r will become far more humanized isthat we're going to have to create very customized solutions for each one ofthose individuals. I tell the story about the young guy. You had abackground up like this, but you know you can break through the backgroundright. Something was breaking through break and he breaking through and thensuddenly some one handed him a tiny baby over his shoulder he's in themiddle of the meeting he's actually making the presentation o this babycomes, it's clear, mom had had it a so now he's got the baby and he continuesat the presentation. I will never look at that guy, the same yeah i willalways see him is that young father trying to do all the right things forhis wife for his baby for his profession, and i owe him a customconfigured solution around he. How he's going to manage his career and that'smy goal using this technology and breaking all the old moves of theindustrial age? That said, i had to herd you together and treat you all thesame and create a solution that has a volume attachment to it. Why i now havebeen freed up from all that volume work i can go, custom can configure andthat's the more human approach. I love the herd of humans, analogy therebecause yeah, it's it's. Okay, treat everybody the same. Don'tindividualized, don't understand that some people resonate with differentparts of this planet really deeply and that they right our best life isactually not living in a city and they want to look up at the stars, that'sright and and that we all get fed from the locations were in and we have wiveswho need support and need a break from the baby. We have hobbies that fuel us.I actually did a linked in post the other day. I was saying like the beliefthat 'll change the business world for...

...the better or that the needs of thehuman are good for the needs of the business right and when we can embracethat that the things that i get to do outside of work, the dance parties i goto the friends i have the sports, the swimming and the reservoirs actuallyfeeds me and helps me come to work and be better at solving problems. It'slike you, know, eureka in the bathtub right. You never know where the greatidea is going to hit you one of the things as i particularly as i coachwomen. I often ask them to try to be conscious of when they feel mostcreative or when they think they're, having their best ideas and they'll seea pattern, and what they need to do is then protect that time make certainthat they don't over schedule that time make certain. If there's a time thatthey're brain some for some of us, it's first thing in the morning right forsome of us. It's it for lots of people interesting up. It is in the in acommute, and so some of those books were could just going out and drivingaround their car for a few hours in order to get the you know the quiet andthey would think and they're doing things you know and unconsciouslycompetent you're, driving the car, and so your brain can do other things youhave to be conscious of when that moment is and don't overwhelm it. I'mmarried to a composer my husband started out as a singer and actor andmoved into jingle singing and ultimately into composition, and what inoticed about him over the years is that he has moments in the day when heis very creative. They don't line up with traditional family life, trust me,and so you know, when you got, i know with it, i'm laughing i'll share. Whyi'm laughing in a moment. One of the things i also noticed is how manysoftware engineers have music. In the background it dawned them me one daythat their best moments in terms of creation, a software which is very akinto music. Their best moments may not be in a nine to five corral that i call anopen office setting. You know we have got to allow them to use their brainsas they should be using their brains to solve problems, and so- and that meansthat you've got to run a twenty four seven kind of world for them. In someways they have to have access to tools and and if they think best in a kayak.Well, let's give him a kayak, they think bat. You know i mean if theythink best sitting on top of a mountain. Let's give them access to that mountain.Let's figure out how we get the best out of these folks. It's not theindustrial age, again heard them into a controlled artificial environment andasked them to be the best. No one's proven that or that environment hadever brought the best out in anyone. So so i was laughing because my wife is amusic producer and and a very creative and i swear she does her best work from ato midnight and on the weekends which drives me crazy because i'm like oh i'm,just done with work, let's chill out or is the weekend. I want to go andadventure. It's my own practice to support her in that, instead of my ownselfish neediness, exactly like no hang out with me, you know so! Oh you know,and for a year my husband and i shared my current space. If, if i tookbackground down for a year, his studio...

...was behind me, and so i thought well,this is great. He's got his head phones on. He give me at the synthesizedrinking. Do what he's doing you know, and i can be over here in my meetings.What is just the fair mones in the room he one time said to me. You know you're,really, a distraction which i thought was we've been married. Twenty six s iwas like. Oh that's, so sweet i mister. He said no! It's that consistantbreathing in and out that you're doing this yeah right, it's botherin, abeautiful flower, distracting you no mean no, it's just yeah, so so yeah so, and we discovered thathe also needs an easement around him in order to be as creative as possible,and i believe that all human beings have their own easement and whetherthat is medize can sit twenty six inches away from somebody or twentyfeet away from somebody or twenty miles away from somebody. Everyone has theirown easement that they need in order to be able to be creative and do theirbest thinking at a global level. Being the chr o being a c po, we get to setsome of the global cultural tones around these things. How it is amanager department leader and take this on and say: okay, all right nancy. Iagree thank you for setting the permission and the whole system forthis. How do i actually manage my team to support people actually unlockingtheir potential operating out of their their highest creative development andbe their best? Well again, i would say the whole role of manager is going tochange, isn't it and as we move forward, we have a feedback,rich environment. I really don't have to have an individual come and tell mehow i'm doing against standards right. I should be able to see that againststandards and and know that that's seen by more people than just me thatthere's some transparency in that when there's transparency and here's thestandards of excellence and how are you doing against them and by the way, it'snot just one person's assessment, but that whole three sixty thing right thatwe try to make certain that everybody is going to get a full view of theirimpact on the world, not just their ability to please their boss on knowthat standard that explicit standard of excellence. Yes, is i mean i feel, likeprobably so obvious, and so few companies have done the work to definewhat are their standards of excellence beyond a kind of vague useless right,critical, employee manual or something we're on that journey right now,because those things change a bit. You know when you're early scrappy start up.You know four guys living on cheetos and redible in the garage somewhere.Your standards for excellence is one thing when you, when you hire a hundredpeople, you have well now you have to have a little different look at that.You know: how are you going to communicate that when you get to threethousand four thousand five thousand in place, you have to be very overtlyspecific about it. You've got to make certain and you've got to make certainit's translatable into every culture in every language that you're not usingcoloquies. That are only understood in...

...the silton valley, and so this is notas easy as it sounds. When you say, standards of excellence, it's hard wormand then and the truth is the role of managers. We have done everything wecan to make the role of managers easy. We've created, hrs systems that youknow will be perfectly intuitive for manages and give them exactly what theyneed and put it at their finger tips, and i'm not certain that makingmanagers work easier is is necessarily what we should be doing. They need tohave all of those tools that all of that needs to be easy, but it is hardwork to sit with some one and understand what their hopes and dreamsare to sit with somebody and say what can you contribute to us while we'recontributing to you what that's hard work that and there's there are veryfew short cuts to it. I can get rid of all the rest of that work that you'vebeen that you've been ridiculously preoccupied with and give you the timeand space to do it, but it's a different skill set to be a manager inthe future. If you're going to really try to help people move towardexcellence, move toward great contribution and know that you are alsosupposed to be contributing to them, and so i think that we'll be choosingdifferent kinds of people into management roles. I think managementroles will look very different in the future. I think they're going to be farmore rewarding. I think that, as opposed to the power of supervision,the puty use of power that we see in lots of management structures, i thinkwe're going to see the expansive use of power in other people's lives. If wecan figure these management roles correctly, but they think this is sointeresting because it it kind of goes back to shielding the wounds ofhierarchy exactly like like there's. So the humanity has such these deep woundsof hierarchy right. So, of course, we're going to have power over ratherthan eyo know. What did you call it expansive use of power, yes or inservice of a human? Being? That's right! That's exactly right! When i firststarted moving up the ranks in hr, i had some relatives from the midwestothat were very very world war. Two and very industrial agent. I mentioned thati had you know, had a promotion and they said. Oh, you could fire people,and that was that was the ultimate use of power that they saw was a negativeimpact in somebody's life, and i i remember you know not challenging themin the moment. He s no way to change them, but thinking whoa boy. That isnot what i was thinking about in terms of the potential power of my role andand and i'm not thinking about an environment where you know, everybodygets a partas participation trophy. I really am thinking about an environmentwhere respect is the leading currency in compensation. I've always said thatthe first currency i have in all compensation is respect, and i thinkthat the more you can understand what people's hopes and dreams are, the moreyou can see how they're trying to fulfill them, the more respectful youcan be of in giving them messages about whether they align with what you'rehoping to do in the company. You've been listening to hr superstarsstories from the front lines of h, r...

...and people. Ops be sure you never missan episode by subscribing on your favorite podcast player, if you'relistening on apple podcasts, we'd love for you to leave a thoughtful with youor give a quick writing by tapping the stars. Thank you so much for listeninguntil next time.

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