HR Superstars
HR Superstars

Episode 21 · 1 year ago

Blowing Up Human Resources: The End of Industrial Age Practices


Many HR practices trace their roots back to the industrial age — an era where management practices were inspired by the practice of slavery and created on a foundation of distrust towards workers. 

If you’ve been doing something for over 75 years that’s sourced in suffering and clearly no longer working, it’s time for a revolution. 

In part one of our interview with Nancy Hauge, Chief Human Resources Officer at Automation Anywhere, Nancy explains why she’s on a mission to rid the HR function of every outdated, industrial age mentality that’s holding it back. 

We discuss: 

  • The roots of industrial age management practices 
  • The neuroscience of leadership 
  • Humanizing work through automation 
  • Creating customized HR solutions for each individual 
  • Skill sets needed to be a manager of the future 

For the entire interview, subscribe to HR Superstars on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or Stitcher. Or tune in on our website. 

Listening on a desktop & can’t see the links? Just search for HR Superstars in your favorite podcast player.

They came up with family farms and went into these industrial setups the the manufacturing world that was being created then. There wasn't a lot of process. There wasn't a lot of understanding about how to manage people in those environments. Right, if you're managing your kids and your cousins on a farm, it's one thing, but to bring them into that environment. And so unfortunately the folks that that thought g how do you manage, you know, strangers? They looked to slavery and said how are people supervised? How do you keep people in the work environment? And unfortunately some of those behaviors moved into management behaviors of the early industrial age. You're listening to HR superstars, a podcast from one fifteen five that highlights stories from the front lines of HR and people ops. Each episode will showcase fascinating conversations with leaders offering their unique experiences and advice for building an extraordinary company and culture. Let's get into the show. Welcome back to another episode of HR Superstars, and we've got a real treat for you. Today we've got Nancy. How gy that I say that. Great Nancy, you didn't think very got it. Excellent for you. So Nancy is the overseas all functions of everything people so c hrrows or CPO, in other words for automation in you wear. This includes talent acquisition, communication, total rewards, learning and development and employee engagement. Nancy brings more than thirty years of experience and senior leadership and management consulting roles and in the some of our predialogs we also learned that this is Nancy's last role in the Nancy is preparing to exit from the professional world and so we just thought this is such an incredible opportunity to learn from some of Nancy's wisdom and the learnings and get to take a journey with Nancy to see some of what she's seeing and some of what she sees for the future of this this wild world of HR. Welcome to the show, Nancy. Thank you so much. It's really it's really fun to be here. Thank you for inviting me. So, Nancy, one of the things that I thought was so cool when we were talking about what do you what do you want for the world of HR, and you were like, well, actually, I want to blow up HR and so should I call the FBI or you know what? What? What's what do you mean when you say I want to blow up HR quick, call the personnel police. Exactly, call HR exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I think that HR has evolved from, I think, some pretty nefarious beginnings and it it doesn't do enough that. The function, the folks in the function, don't do enough self explant self exploratory work to say what are we really doing here? What, what should we be providing to the organization and to the people that we serve? We have it's an organization that often defaults into...

...what its customers are asking for versus what is really needed. And so that's, yeah, I'd like I'd like to I'd like to blow it up a bit. That's go to the nefarious beginnings of HR, because I think this is a very under explored conversation around how did we get to HR? You know, like the world didn't just suddenly come into being one day. All of the systems and processes and mindsets and beliefs that were operate from and just take for granted. They all have their roots in a deep history. And so what do you mean by the nefarious roots of HR? Well, you know, again, at the dawn of the industrial age, suddenly people came off of family farms particularly, and then in the northern part of the United States and UK they came out with family farms and went into these industrial setups, the the manufacturing world that was being created. then. There wasn't a lot of process. There wasn't a lot of understanding about how to manage people in those environments. Right, if you're managing your kids and your cousins on a farm, it's one thing, but to bring them into that environment and so unfortunately the folks that that thought g how do you manage, you know, strangers? They looked to slavery and said how are people supervised? How do you keep people in the work environment? And unfortunately some of those behaviors moved into management behaviors of the early industrial age. And so whether it was locking people into the workplace, that ended up with the shirtwaist fire and changing those laws making certain that a supervisor set above just like the overseer sat on a horse to oversee the plantation. The supervisors initially sat eighteen inch platforms above the workers so they could see them and supervise them. Because you have assumed that the work that the worker didn't want to be there, that they were going to flee, and so a whole bunch of things were created on the industrial age, the workplace being a separate thing from your home, the workplace and your employment relationship being such a very different relationship than anything else you had in the normally evolved world. And so it's all artificial and it was all based on the mistrust of people won't stay and do this work, the they'll try to flee, they're going to try to steal time from me. And, by the way, why wouldn't they? The work was deadly boring, it was drudgery, it was horrific and while people will argue with me that the industrial age created enormous amounts of jobs, I'm telling you I don't want my grandchildren doing any of them. The world has to change, and so I am on a quest in the last years of my career to disabuse us of every single industry industrial age mentality that we use in the workplace today. And whether you know, in the evolution of HR from trade union, well, let's start with forks, who just walked around with clubs keeping people inside the workplace to trade UN avoid. That literally was a jar back then. That was h our back then they literally were the leg breakers, and so...

...the people who could didn't get into police forces to make certain that, you know, runaway slaves were returned, which is what the police originally were created to do. Those people ended up in the private industries as kind of the the kneecamp breakers to keep people in their in their roles. But then, of course trade union started to emerge and you had people who are trade union avoidance, same guys with clubs to trade union compliance. Now this started then into okay, we are going to have to comply with some stuff, and then it moved into will say, the World Wars. Where we went from? We started looking at more volume processes and productivities and all that kind of stuff born out of two world wars. They we still have practices today inside human resources organizations that were born out of World War Two. And so you know, and I say anything you've been doing for seventy five years you should probably think about again. So let's take profession and performance reviews, precisely designed for nineteen year old boys, and yet we are still using same kind of philosophy and format to give well educated, knowledge based adult workers feedback about how they might do better in their role. I'll have to stand up for ourselves, because that is it. That is our mission, is reinventing these things. Of like, what do we how would we we actually design a performance review based on twenty one century understanding of neuroscience, psychology, positive psychology, humanistic psychology, you know, the deep intrinsic motivation, and I mean yes, where it's so ripe for reinrect well, and so their sciencelies. Want to take I wanted they take it. Take a moment, because that's pretty heavy, what you just laid out. It's a, as they say, a tough, a bitter pill to swallow to realize that HR which you know, so many of us love and we feel this kind of shoot, almost this humanistic calling to elevate people's lives and help unlock their potential. But if we don't address the shadows, we don't go look deeper underneath the top soil at the corrupted roots that this came from, and again I mean corrupted roots. I mean it's part it's tricky to put our value systems on the past, of course, because it different stages of development of humanity, different value systems that are very different than what we have now. But if we don't examine those things, it's no wonder we're looking at the results we have today with, say, you know, sixty seventy percent disengagement, and that's country. That's exactly right, and so you were precisely correct. And the whole concept of performance review, Performance Review. We live in the most real feedback rich environment that has ever been seen on earth. I mean, think about it. You get into your are and it tells you if you're using your gas milage correctly. It gives you all sorts of data. You correct your performance moment by moment when you're in your car. And yet we don't have those same kinds of dashboards and tools to tell the human beings that work with us how they're doing minute by minute, or doing again you we there's enormous...

...amounts of feedback around people. I think everybody knows how they're doing every single day, but we don't make it very safe to acknowledge it. We don't make it very comforting in terms of saying we'll give you help and support. I was just having the conversation with somebody last night about the fact that one of our the great flaws in all performance feedback, and I love the fact that your praise doesn't have a euphemism, but criticism does. We call it feedback, and so when you give someone feedback, you have to give them you know, some hold up a mirror and say this is probably not the reflection you'd really like to see. When you do that, the neuroscience says, you know, they're going to shut down in some ways. That's all they're going to think about. You have got to make certain that you've got some support network around them that says, look, here's how I'm going to help you. My rule is don't give somebody feedback unless you've got two or three ways you can give them support to change, because change is hard. But we we don't build that in to processes. We don't teach people how to do that. We teach them tell them good news, tell them bad news, tell them good news. What we now know from a neuroscience perspective is they never hear the good news when you tell them the bad. You need seven days between a good and a bad message, right, and always leave with the good. Make certain they understand that and then come at them with at. But here's what we need to change. But you better understand that if you give them any more good feedback after that film, never hear it. My friend, takes a negative so much more thoroughly than it takes in positive. My friend, Raj Kumari Yogi, was explaining it to me that when we when the brain goes into fight, flight or freeze, which is what happens when where we get usually get critical feedback, and that's where you know Buddhas or something, the ear drum actually closes, like literally the physiology of the ear like changes and so we literally can't hear as well and hear it. Yeah, I've got a good friend, brilliant guy named Phil Dixon, and he is one of he's a he's an expert on the neuroscience of leadership and he uses a fabulous example. He says, you know, if I come by in the morning and say hey, you're free at four o'clock and we chat, I've got something I want to talk to you about, you're like yeah, let's do that. If your boss comes by at eight am and says can we talk at for o'clock, you're going to have anxiety the rest of your day. It's automatic that you think, what's that about? What's going on? Am I getting negative feedback. There is a whole neuroscience. Once you change the level in an organization, the reaction by people to that level is going to be one of some anxiety and fear born directly out of a history I discussed with you, born directly out of how we set up the role of supervisor manager, which is to observe from above and tell you what you're doing wrong, as opposed to, you know, maybe we'll talk about these really army model of leadership which is in total service. Serve you right, because of because of course we want to be looking... Not only do we need to confront the reality of the faulties system. I mean, I mean, you know, I mean they were effective, right. I mean all of these things were effective for what was the value system for period time? That's right, period of time. And yet culturally we revolving. There's their different cultural memes and value systems at play. And if we want to create work places where humans, human beings, thrived, we reduce the fear, we increase the collaboration, then we need to like a intellectual honesty that. Then systems we inherited might have some corrupt code, and that right, and then the alternatives, from changing from what these bad systems to what these better models. Right, we also have to acknowledge the evolution of human beings. And while we think evolution takes a very long time, if we compare the workforces from the nine S, which was largely high school educated, and then we went to war and we ended up with at twenty five to two, thirty five percent of more of the population having a college education. They based on the GI built and then and but that generation was highly institutionalized. They'd spent four to five years inside the military, and so organizations could set up those militaristic structures and people knew how to maneuver, they knew how to thrive in them. Then you come to the baby boomers, which is the most highly educated population on earth, the largest population that ever existed on earth. And what happened there is lots of college degrees, lots of higher expectation, without the institutionalization of the military. And so now and and the doctor spot on demand, you know, is immediate gratification is not fast enough. All of that that coming into the workplace changed entirely suddenly. We didn't have enough opportunity to promote all those baby boomers. So we created language around we're going to help you develop, and we created all sorts of development programs and things to enhance and enrich you without necessarily moving you up to the top of the management scale. We did all sorts of things in order to make certain people stayed engaged. That changed hr that change the evolution of human being. So now there's greater demand. We have greater demand for those things. We have greater demand for autonomy. There's all sorts of things that, moving from that s population to the s military and culcated to the baby boomers, change forever. Now do we have? Well, we have the millennials, who don't remember a time when the world was not fraught with a war going on at some some place in the US actually having come under attack. They have one frame of reference and we move now into a population that, as we say, has never been lost. They've had gi GPS with them always. They use more sophisticated technology running their games at home than they're offered at their desks at work and that so that is changing the whole workplace. It's not one generation to another, it's this whole generation shift over four generations that is produced the population we have today. They demand something...

...very different than their father's, their grandfather's and certainly the great grandmother's demanded. Fifteen five is the only evidence based people and performance platform for highly engaged and high performing organizations. Strategic HR leaders in all industries use the platform to win by improving communication, up leveling their managers and increasing company wide engagement. Learn more at fifteen fivecom that all of you've shared this experience, that it really feels like we're living like this next decade. All of these things are converging and we're in this this moment, momentous sea change. Of New models are popping up like wildflowers, but they're not they having taken root for from to through the holes forest. Yet absolutely we do and we don't. We are unclear. For us, you know, to use your analogy, we're unclear about how we're supposed to feed and cultivate. What's the change? And certainly covid with the the work from anywhere in position that it created moved us to the s very rapidly. Right. It accelerated the the concept of workplace by at least by ten years, you know, and it's the in one ways for me it is. The only silver lining of covid is that it shifted the concept of trust, of in the employee. We now know we can trust people to do their jobs, and turns outbule yes from anywhere. I don't have to herd them into an artificial environment in order to know that they are going to be productive and innovative and committed and accountable. All those things happen when you allow people to work from anywhere. Well, and I think about it a lot from a belief system perspective, you know that it was a belief that human beings aren't trustworthy. Then, because you're literally forcing them against their will, you need to trap them, you need to manipulate them, you need to dominate them. Right and exactly right, because of that's comings from a belief system of the way the world works, and also colonialism and all of these other dynamics that are that. You know, beliefs produce actions, which produce the systems and structures we have. That's right. And then there's the unconscious things that occurred, and one of the unconscious things that really has occurred to me as I've moved into the age of automation is that, you know, human beings in the industrial age were really used, as I would say, servants to the technology, servants to the capital equipment, also like human resources. Exactly. Human resources a phrase that I hate so much. It sounds like people are natural gas or something. So I actually used to have a meet up in the bay area that we did called humans, not resources. Exactly perfect. Well, you know the the what's occurred... that what I it's dawned on me, is that people would enormous amounts of money and capital equipment and whether it was the early stage mechanical equipment that they were using for the industrial age, right up till to now, till now when it's huge investments in software solutions, human beings are ancillary to it. We are, we are, like you know, we are in service of that capital equipment, and you've probably heard me say before. If you don't believe me, think about this once. The last time you saw a company get into trouble and put all of its capital equipment out in the parking lot said anybody could come take it, as opposed to whence last time you saw a company do a riff when they were in trouble and put all of their human assets out in the parking lot say anybody can come take it. So that is we are still in a in a less human central environment as long as we value that capital equipment over the human being. And so that's you know, again, automation helps change that. Automation helps make people far more humans. That makes the world far more human centric by making us no longer servants to the technology but the technology serving the human interaction. Well, I think this is really interesting because, you know, there's definitely a lot of speculation, fear, two sides of the camp of automation AI is going to enslave humanity or automation AI is going to liberate humanity. And you know, obviously I think you probably fall into a little bit more of the like optimistic. Hey, automation can liberate humanity, help humanize the work force. Yes, I mean can you? Can you share a little bit around what automation anywhere is doing on that front and why you're optimistic that this will help humanize our how it helps it be more yes, absolutely, you know, when you take away the robotic work and you leave the work the human being should do. You know, I always say we have many missions at automation anywhere that all serve a big the biggest mission, which is probably releasing human cranial capacity for the first time in two hundred and fifty years, getting people out of functioning as robots and returning human beings to do a human beings do best thinking, learning, caring, innovating, you know, developing. We are not really good at being robots. We can do it, but we make mistakes, we get tired, our brain wanders, it wants to do more things, which is why all those repetitive roles really have never been suited to human beings and why they had to be supervised as they were. Because we're would be right. We don't, but they're not enjoyable. I kind of who wouldn't run from that work? So and the truth is, and I you know, I kind of love this, I one of the colleagues when the founders from automation anywhere said to me one day, you know, if I ask you what you do, you're going to tell me the most complex thing. Okay, so I'm the CHR row. I run HR and, I think big, lofty thoughts. I said vision, I set strategy, I do all that they ask me. But you know, what else do you do? You know when you're not doing that. Well, yeah,...

I roll up my sleeves and I do comp work, kind of. I love an excel spreadsheet and I do. I love getting my fingers that and then but what's what else do you have to do? That's what the bottom third. Well, the truth is there's a lot of, you know, kind of mucky stuff that I still have to do, whether it's cleaning out emails that I get on solicited and there you know, they fill up my mailbox and confuse me, or whether it's calendaring stuff or you know, all either still muck work in our personal drama with employees. But the stuff that I'm talking about, this stuff I could automate. And if I could automate that bottom third, what would I do with that thirty percent of my time that you give back? I'd probably apply it to the most complex thing which often people think of. When you think about the most complex thing you do, you often think, well, that's almost like the frosting. I've got to do all this crap work, then I've got to do all this mundane work and then I finally get to do what is the most intriguing to me. Well, but through automation. You can flip it. I refer to it as my if only list. No Hur personnel ever said, you know, if only I didn't have to do this executive development, I could get back to data entry an analysis. Right, that's not how you think. The truth is once you take that data entry and analysis and put it behind the human being, with the with the BOT, you get to do that more innovative work. Now people often say to me, you know, but what about the retooling, reskilling of people? Not Everybody's capable of creative work. And I say every time I've written a boat and we have forty or fifty running an hr at any given time. Every single one has allowed has taken camouflage off of some human capability that I had covered up with the industrial age mentality. And so we wrote a boat to count heads, and the young woman who did it took her hours and hours a week because it was very complex in our company. Once we wrote wrote a boat to do that, Shein and went and created a spectacular intern program and so I didn't have to retrain or for it. She'd it's been in her head. She'd been thinking, if only had time, I'd get to that only had time, I could do that. We gave her the gift of the time and she created a great value proposition for us. Every single time we've written about we have created something was of more value to the human beings that work with us. One of the, I. The tenets of our management philosophy of fifteen five is the idea that everybody, everybody's a genius, everybody has genius. You. Yes, and and so you know, I don't know if you're familiar, at the model of like zone of genus. We have zone of genius, we have a zone of excellence and I zone of competence and zone of incompetence as the the two by two, and that how do we uncover our own zones of genius so that we can spend at least more time? Maybe we don't get a hundred percent of our time in there. And what I'm really hearing you say is part of the vision you have is where we get to automate the zones of incompetence, the zone, even the zone is I excellence. Yes, because that zone of genius is where the work that we do feeds our soul, gives this energy. We leave the work day more energized than when we walked into it, exactly intrigued about coming back... our own being able to solve the problem that you identified for yourself. You know, we here Shukla, our CEO, uses this great analogy about people's resistance and concerns and fears about technology. He said, you know, if you ask me what the weather was in two thousand and five I'd go google it. If you ask me what the weather was in two thousand and fifteen, I go to my smartphone and look it up. Today, I say Hey, look, so what's leather tomorrow? And I don't necessarily lose eye contact with you. Now, imagine if that was the case of everybody you have inside your company that has their fingers on the keyboard, if you could take their fingers off the keyboard and turn their face towards your customer, if turn there or an HR turn their face toward the employee population that we're trying to keep engaged. Head down with your fingers on a keyboard never creates engagement. Surveys don't create engagement. Human beings talking to human beings, human beings engaging with human being. That's what creates engaging and so that's why I say it's a far more human centric world. Now, the other thing I'll tell you is between hiding and getting rid of that robotic work and then this pandemic world where we've lived in this zoom environment. I've got a background up today, but most days you can just see my Home Office. I've now spent a year looking into people's homes. It's impossible for me to see them the same way as when they were a herd of employees in an artificial environment, and so I believe that one of the ways hr will become far more humanized as that we're going to have to create very customized solutions for each one of those individuals. I tell the story about the young guy who had a background up like this, but you know, you can break through the background right. Something was breaking through, breaking through, breaking through, and then suddenly someone handed him a tiny baby over his shoulder. He's in the middle of the meeting, he's actually making the presentation. This baby comes. It's clear mom had had it. Yeah, now he's got the baby and he continues with the presentation. I will never look at that guy the same. Yeah, I will always see him as that young father trying to do all the right things for his wife, for his baby, for his profession, and I owe him a custom configured solution around here how he's going to manage his career, and that's my goal, using this technology and breaking all the old molds of the industrial age. That said, I had to Hurd you together and treat you all the same and create a solution that has a volume attachment to it. Why? I now have been freed up from all that volume work. I can go custom to configure, and that's the more human approach. I love the heard of humans analogy there, because, yeah, it's it's okay treat everybody the same, don't individualize. Don't understand that some people resonate with different parts of this planet really deeply and that they right, are best life is actually not living in a city and they want to look up at the stars. That's right, and and that we all get fed from the locations were in and we have wives who need support and need a break from the baby. We have hobbies that fuel us. I actually did a linkedin post the other day. I was saying, like the beliefs that...

...will change the business world for the better are that the needs of the human are good for the needs of the business, right, and when we can embrace that, that the things that I get to do outside of work, the dance parties I go to, the friends I have, the sports, the swimming in the reservoirs actually feeds me and helps me come to work and be better at solving problems. It's like, you know, Eureka in the bathtub, right. You never know where the great idea is going to hit you. One of the things as I particularly as I coach women, I often ask them to try to be conscious of when they feel most creative or when they think they're having their best ideas, and they'll see a pattern and what they need to do is then protect to that time, make certain that they don't overschedule that time. Make certain if there's a time that their brains some for some of us it's first thing in the morning, right. For some of us it's for lots of people, interestingly enough, it is in the in a commute, and so some of those books were just going out and driving around their car for a few hours in order to get the you know, the quiet, and they would think and they're doing things, you know, and unconsciously competent. You're driving the car and so your brain could do other things. You have to be conscious and when that moment is and don't overwhelm it. I'm married to a composer. My husband started out as a singer and actor and moved into jingle singing and ultimately into composition, and what I noticed about him over the years is that he has moments in the day when he is very creative. They don't line up with traditional family life, trust me, and so you know I'm meaning. I know with it. I'm laugh I'll do'll share my why I'm laughing in a moment. One of the things I also noticed is how many software engineers have music in their background. The Dawn the me one day that their best moments in terms of creation of software, which is very akin to music, their best moments may not be in a nine hundred and twenty five krral that I call an open office setting. You know, we have got to allow them to use their brains as they should be, using their brains to solve problems and so and that means that you've got to run a seven kind of world for them. In some ways. I have have access to tools and and if they think best in a Kayak, well, let's get the Kayak. They think that. You know. I mean, if they big best sitting on top of a mountain, let's give them access to that mountain. Let's figure out how we get the best out of these folks. It's not the industrial age. Again, heard them into a controlled, artificial environment and ask them to be the best. No one's proven that are that environment has ever brought the best out in anyone. So I was laughing because my wife is a music producer and and very creative and sure, I swear she does her best work from a to midnight and on the weekends, which drives me crazy because I'm like, Oh, I'm just done with work, let's chill out, or it's the weekend, I want to go and adventure. It's my own practice to support her in that instead of my own selfish neediness. Exactly, no, hang out with me, you know. So, Oh, you know, and for a year my husband and I shared my current space. If if I took back round down for a year, his studio was behind me and... I thought, well, this is great, he's got his headphones on, he could be at the synthesize or I can do what he's doing, you know, and I can be over here in my meetings. What Day is just the fair ones in the room. He one time said to me, you know, you're really a distraction, which I thought was we've been married forty six years. I was like, oh, that's so sweet. I'm mister. He said, no, it's that consessant breathing in and out that you're doing. Just, yeah, right, it's bottom. I'm a beautiful flower distracting you. No, it's just yeah, so, so, yeah. So when we discovered that he also needs an easement around him in order to be as creative as possible, and I believe that all human beings have their own easement, and whether that easement is I can sit twenty six inches away from somebody, or twenty feet away from somebody or twenty miles away from somebody, everyone has their own easement that they need in order to be able to be creative and do their best. thinking at a global level. Being the CHRROW, being a CPO, we get to set some of the global cultural tones around these things. How does a manager, department leader and take those on and say, okay, all right, Nancy, I agree. Thank you for setting the permission in the whole system for this. How do I actually manage my team to support people actually unlocking their potential, operating out of their their highest creative development and be their best? Well, again, I would say the whole role of manager is going to change, isn't it? In as we move forward we have a feedback rich environment. I really don't have to have an individual come and tell me how I'm doing against standards. Right, I should be able to see that against standards and and know that that's seen by more people than just me, that there's some transparency in that. When there's transparency in here's the standards of excellence and how are you doing against them? And, by the way, it's not just one person's assessment, but that whole three hundred and sixty thing, right, that we try to make certain that everybody is going to get a full view of their impact on the world, not just their ability to please their boss. Well, and though that standard, that explicit standard of excellence, yes, is I mean I feel like probably it's so obvious and so few companies have done the work to define what are their standards of excellence beyond the kind of vague, useless critical employee manual or something. We're on that journey right now, because those things change a bit. You know, when you're early scrappy start up, you know, for guys living on Cheetos and red bull in a garage somewhere, your standard for excellence is one thing. When you when you hire a hundred people, you well, now you have to have a little different look at that. You know, how are you going to communicate that when you get to three thousand, four thousand, five thousand employees? You have to be very overtly specific about it. You've got to make certain and you've got to make certain it's translatable into every culture and every language. And then you're not using colloquialisms that are only understood in the Silicon Valley.

And so this is not as easy as it sounds when you say standards of excellence. It's hard work. And then, and the truth is the role of managers. We'd have done everything we can to make the role of managers easy. We've created HRAS systems that you know, will be perfectly intuitive for managers and give them exactly what they need and put it at their fingertips. And I'm not certain that making managers work easier. Is is necessarily what we should be doing. Are they to have all of those tools that all of that needs to be easy. But it is hard work to sit with someone and understand what their hopes and dreams are, to sit with somebody and say what can you contribute to us while we're contributing to you? What? That's hard work that and there's they're very few shortcuts to it. I can get rid of all the rest of that work that you've been that you've been ridiculously preoccupied with, and give you the time and space to do it. But it's a different skill set to be a manager in the future if you're going to really try to help people move toward excellence, move toward great contribution, and know that you're also supposed to be contributing to them. And so I think that we'll be choosing different kinds of people into management roles. I think management rules will look very different in the future. I think they're going to be far more rewarding. I think that, as opposed to the power of supervision, the puny use of power that we see in lots of management structures, I think we're going to see the expansive use of power in other people's lives if we configure these management rules correctly. What I think this is so interesting because it kind of goes back to healing the wounds of hierarchy exactly, like, like there's so the humanity has such these deep wounds of hierarchy, right, so of course we're going to have power over rather than you know what, did you call it? Expansive use of power? Yes, or in service of a human being? That's right, that's exactly right. When I first started moving up the ranks in in H are, I had some relatives from the Midwest that were very, very world war two and very industrial age, and I mentioned that I had, you know, had a promotion and they said, Oh, you could fire people and that was the that was the ultimate use of power that they saw was a negative impact in somebody's life. And I'll I remember, you know, not challenging them in the moment because it was no way to change them, but thinking, you whoa boy. That is not what I was thinking about in terms of the potential power of my role and and I'm not thinking about an environment where, you know, everybody gets a partaste participation trophy. I really am thinking about an environment where respect is the leading currency in compensation. Of always said that the first currency I have in all compensation is respect, and I think the more you can understand what people's hopes and dreams are, the more you can see how they're trying to fulfill them, the more respectful you can be of in giving them messages about whether they align with what you're hoping to do in the company. You've been listening to HR superstars, stories from the front lines of...

HR and people ops. Be Sure you never miss an episode by subscribing on your favorite podcast player. If you're listening on Apple PODCASTS, we'd love for you to leave a thoughtful review or give a quick rating by tapping the stars. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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