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HR Superstars

Episode 5 · 1 year ago

Becoming a Dragon Leader: How Fire, Vulnerability, and Curiosity Make You a Better Leader w/ Dov Baron

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

How can we recognize and nurture dragons in our organizations?

How can we become dragons ourselves?

Wait, what is all this talk about dragons?

Don’t worry, we’re not trying to become flying, fire-breathing mythical creatures.

But we are on a quest to push ourselves to improve, to commit to our purpose, and to serve our full potential. As leaders, we want to help our people do the same.

To find out how to become better leaders and help employees connect to greater meaning, we caught up with “The Dragonist” Dov Baron, Leadership Strategist and Loyalty Authority, IncMag Top100 leadership speaker, #1 Fortune500 PodcastHost, and Entrepreneur Magazine contributor.

What we talked about:

-Where the term “Dragon Leader” came from.

-How to lead your people through a heroic journey.

-What meaningful leadership looks like.

-How your past shapes the way you lead (and a reflective exercise that makes us a bit uncomfy).

-The difference between vulnerability and emotional vomit.

-How to address division with continuous curiosity.

For the entire interview, subscribe to HR Superstars on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or Stitcher. Or, tune in on our website.

You're going to get up in the morning unit of to lead you people. That's what you got to do, that's your job, that is what you get paid for. How you do it and why you do it is completely different, and that's the heroic journey. That's finding your dragonfly. That's being a dragon leader. You're listening to HR superstars, a podcast from one five hun five that highlights stories from the front lines of HR and people ups. Each episode will showcase fascinating conversations with leaders offering their unique experiences and advice for building an extraordinary company and culture. Let's get into the show. We're really excited to have dove bearing today. Now. Dove is known as the DRAGONISTS and ink magazine top one hundred Leadership Speaker Number One, fortune five hundred podcast host, which David and I have both been on his podcast. He's an entrepreneur, magazine contributor, Loyalty Authority. He guides us and how to recognize and nurture dragons, the top talent hidden in our organizations. A dragon leader is not a position. It's someone who is always pushing to improve and wants those they serve to reach their full potential. Besides being a best selling author of one red thread and fiercely loyal how high performing companies develop and retain top talent. Dove's been named one of ink magazine's top one hundred leadership speakers to hire and as one of the top thirty global leadership gurus. He's spoken to the United Nations, the World Management Forum, The New York National Speakers Association and The Servant Leadership Institute in One Thousand Nine hundred and ninety June. One thousand nine hundred and ninety, while free rock climbing in this is a crazy story. Maybe dove can share a little bit more about this. Dove fell approximately a hundred and twenty feet and landed on his face. The impact shattered most of the bone structure of his face and, after ten reconstructive surgeries, no external evidence remains, and if you're watching this on video, you will see what we mean by that. However, this experience wasn't just life changing, it has been completely transformational. Dove shares how dragons are born in fire. Experiences that could potentially destroy you instead can birth purpose, passion and hunger to take champion others to nurture the dragonfire and ourselves are families are communities and our company, dove, believes the world needs more dragon leaders committed to living their purpose, standing in their truth and empowering others to find their fire and do the same. Dove. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Shane. Pleasure to be here with you and David, always in honor to speak to you too. I'm excited to be, excited to share and actually very excited to potentially a little fire under some people. Yeah, love that. I'm very curious. You know, I often talk about and haven't talked about it too much on this show, but you know, I really believe that language is so powerful and distinctions are so powerful and you know, when you say dragon leader, that that really gets at that's strong language. That really calls something up and you know, you describe it as someone who's pushing to improve and you know, wants those who you know they serve to reach their full potential. And you know, I think other people, including ourselves, have words for that, but not as strong. Where did the where did the term come from like and how do you start actually noticed this characteristic in people? That's a great question. It started because one of my background is in young game psychology and Kemble's work and those kinds of things. And when you look at dragons, though, these incredible creatures in mythology, the interesting thing about them is that in every myth they say they sit on the gold. They sit on that which is precious. The goal is a metaphor. So they protect which is what is precious. I love that. So, first of all, second of all, the covered in the scales that are impenetrable. Yet the front scale on them, that the one that's...

...right over their heart, is translucent and completely penetrable. So dragons lead with fire from their mouth and hot but that means with vulnerability. So they protect, which is which, which is incredibly valuable. They lead with fire and heart. So mean it was the perfect metaphor, the that they can be quite terrifying but at the same time incredibly vulnerable and soft and and uplifting. So makes me happy to just bring in mythology into the kind of dry corporate business speak as well. You know you can't bring in these like deep human archetypes of magic and things that aren't actually based in the scientific, rational world and that those can inform us actually be better leaders. And maybe why is there anyway, I like remote. Yeah, well, why I like it is that I feel like as a you know, as a teenager, I read it crap load of fantasy and still am a huge fantasy fan. So literary genre, and I feel like I learned more about leadership that from those books that I have, through a lot of the non fiction that I've read. But you actually just pinpointed where I was going to go. So thank you, because we know for sure that people who read fiction over nonfiction have stronger ethical and moral values. That's research. that as your science and impet so those your site. But more empathetic, the more empathetic that they they have more empathetic responses than will morally senter, more ethically centered, because human beings learned best by story. Now, if you pray, if you frame that story in the heroic journey which has its ops, has its jaims and makes us all look at who we are and we're quascent in a quest, then this is a perfect, perfect metaphor for leadership. Yeah, we it my high school, actually my freshman year of high school. My principle had has right out our whole high school journey as a Joseph Campbell style heroes journey of really like dude thriving. Okay, cool, this is going to be the arc of our educational journey. And you know, I it makes me think of as managers, as business leaders. They we are all on our own heroes journey. We really are in this process, not just to get a paycheck, but because we're alive and we are walking and evolutionary path where we are going to confront our own our own dragons, our own demons, you know. And so it's again you something very important. You said something very important there, because you said your high school principle had you right out your high school journey as a heroic journey. Now, did everybody who go to high school do that? Answer is no. Did they still finish high school? Yes, did you? Yes. So, when you talk about leading a people, whether that's hit from being hr or being coo, it doesn't matter. You're going to lead you people, but are you going to lead them through a heroic journey? That's a different frame of reference entirely. And what you do, what you, your principle did that was made it meaningful, and this is the whole purpose of a heroic journey. This is the whole purpose of dragon leadership is bringing people to a to a bunded meaning that everybody rallies around. And so what you point out there, he's a really great metaphor for for people in leadership positions, is to go you're going to get up in the morning, you don't have to lead you people. That's what you got to do, that's your job, that is what you get paid for. How you do it and why you do it is completely different, and that's the heroic journey. That's finding your dragon fare, that's being a dragon leader. So I really appreciate you bringing that up, because it's easy to just go well, yeah, I'm just going through high school. Oh Yeah, sure, I'm the D of HS. So what you mentioned something about, you know, the concept of it being meaningful and that...

...meaningful aspect of it, and I was reading in livers in your Bayo it's at actualized leadership means getting the result you set out to achieve in the most meaningful manner. Or if you can kind of tease that out, like what what do you mean by meaningful? Why is that important and why does that add to you know, just the result to be a fully actualized leadership. I actually always love that question. What do you mean by meaningful? It's like rightly describe the thing you're just ask me so, but I mean, we know this again, research is that the companies that meaning driven funnel better at keeping the people, that keep the people loyal and engaged in all those kinds of things and they get more out of the people human beings. This is not my opinion, this is psychology, this is the research. Human beings have a search for meaning. It's what we always do. Once we get past the feeding the wife and kids and doing the basics, we are now in search of meaning. And the truth of the matter is that that is a meaning. is a heroic journey. So finding your own meaning takes a commitment. However, there is something called secondary meaning and it's meaning applied to what it is I do now. Meaning applied to what it is I do is why people join churches, it's why people join movements. They're looking for meaning in the meaning in that environment. So when you create an organization and you're not talking when it's all about vision, we're not even talking about mission, and when not even talk about purpose. By the way, I'm a great fan of Simon cynic start with why. But the key is that that's the start of the why. It's the why of your why, that is your dragon fire. When you reveal that to your people, they have to find something within themselves which to attach to the meaning of your organization, and that is always subjective. So we could create this objective, generalized meaning of the organization which I can subjectively connect to and make it mine. So this whole idea about getting people to buy in, a lot of it is the right words, but it doesn't have anything to it that many substance until they get the subjective connection. Then it really rocks. All right, he's something want for that. Yeah, well, well, I was actually, David, I was thinking like, what if we actually use our own our own company, as the example? Absolutely, yeah, and specifically that concept of the why of the why. I'm very curious about we can. We know. So let's do it. Is it okay? We do it. A little exercise. I'm going to ask you to put it's great, great right, which means you made a lot of Vulnerable Love Free Coaching. I'll bet you do. So his will will stop. Let me ask you a question, and I'm really going to ask you to answer this honestly, and this may be vulnerable, but I'm going to ask you to do it. I want you to come up with what did you need that you couldn't get or couldn't get enough of when you were a child? I really want you to answer that. I don't wanted to mess about. I want you to be real or want you to be vulnerable, and I know that it's a can be a vulnerable question. What did you need when you were a child that you couldn't get a couldn't get enough of? I'll give you a quick example. One Guy I was working with who is a chief medical officer inside of an organization, and he went, well, you know, I guess maybe a connection with my dad and anyone. No, I had a connection with my dad. I went fishing with him and that was a really great connection. And so I said, okay, that's great. Did you feel connected to doing then he says yeah, I said how often did you go in your childhood? He goes twice. I go, so, did you need more of it, and he goes yeah, said great, that's the answer. So what do you need all you that you couldn't get all couldn't get to enough of? So he got a taste of it, but he didn't get it. So it's the same for you. What did you need, David? What did you need, Shane, that you couldn't get or you couldn't get enough of? This does not make your parents bad people.

So any part of you that's gone. I was hoping, I was hope, really hoping, you are going to validate my parents as bad people. Of No, sorry, it doesn't make him listen into this mom. Yeah, okay, David. You want to go first or you want me to go? Well, don't you go? All right, I okay. So two things that came to mind was approval. I you know, you older brothers, I getting called stupid all the time, growing up in a pretty tumultuous why? A numeric minority in northern New Mexico, one of the few white kids walking around, and then financial resources. So my parents were broken. I there that it led to real consequences for my health, for certain, you know, just aspects of me feeling safe in the world. So approval and prosperity gate will come back to it, David, Yep. For me, I think that, you know, when I look at myself in my earlier years and I think about like, you know, kind of up until fifth grade, sixth grade, somewhere in there, I feel like there was a I didn't have enough of a sense of my own expression and and whether it was the environment I went to. You know, I went to a Catholic school. We all were uniforms, you know, where you wear your own clothes once in a while. I didn't really kind of creatively create my room, you know, is like my mom outfitted it and furnished it and, you know, we went and picked out close together. Maybe she even shot for my clothes and you remember. But I feel like there was an element that it took me a long time to really claim my own expression and I feel like I didn't have space for that for whatever reason as a child. Okay, cool, very good. So now I'm going to ask you will stop by go back with you. Shame because you went first. What is your role in the organization? Chief culture officer, so basically responsible for ensuring not only a maintaining of the culture we've created, but continually pushing the envelope and expanding the culture and living our values. Okay, David, same question. Some my role in the organization. So, you know, a CEO ultimately, I started out by defining what are we doing, why are we doing at the mission, the vision, the values, the direction, the strategy, and then ensuring that I've got a cohesive leadership team of people who know what they're doing to to lead their aspects of my job is to make sure that every one of them is the right person, that they're supported, that they know how to work with each other and that we're all working toward, you know, the common objective of the organization. Right. So those are and then recilessly and capital, all those things, of course, but those are clearly defined. Those are great. So now let me ask you. When you think about those things, I want you to imagine for a moment there's somebody is coming to you and has will come to you, Shane, somebody's coming to you. And what happens when somebody comes to you and they start to tell you that they in their own way, that they need a raise? What's the feeling that comes up for you? Shame, Hey, let's see, the feeling is not the restaurantale. The feeling. Yeah, sure, the feeling is actually one of scarcity. The feeling like one of Oh, yeah, you know, like I would love to give you our a's and you like budget, like two thousand and twenty is real. And yes, there are actual budget considerations that we also had. Need to have equality. We can't have we can't have compensation be political. So it actually needs to be really tied to performance and through an equitable process. Right, but you go to scarcity. Yeah, sure, within your own being first. Okay. And David, if somebody comes to you and says I want a greater level of autonomy in the way I do this and I want to do it differently than we do it and I'm willing to present...

...you with that, what's the feeling that comes up? I'm a lapping my ears. Yeah, I'm laughing, because David's got to be like yes, run exactly. I'm like elated. I'm like thank this is that's yeah, that exactly. Yeah, hundred percent right. So what I know from these questions, based on what I asked you before, is you see, when you have a wound, and we're using this as a childhood wound, when you have a wound, this is this original space in your psyche. When that comes up, what happens is human beings, it's not you two, it's humans. We go to one or two places. They are the polarity of each other. So if I am born in abject policy, which I was, then my psyche will naturally go into scarcity or massive abundance. HMM, I don't think about money. It doesn't it doesn't relate to me. I don't even think about it at all. Never crosses my mind. It might if somebody else brings it up, but on my own and I don't go there. Oh, I'm constantly thinking about all, my God, can we pay the rent, even if I've got a million bucks in the bank. You know what happens if the ship goes down, what happens if we get torpedoed? I'm going to go to that other place because those are my the polarity of my wound. If I was brought up without any sense of individuality and I wasn't allowed to express myself, I'm going to go to everybody has to follow the freaking rules. This is how it is, because we're doing this, because this is how it has to be. Oh, Oh my God, you want to be free and express fantastic, and you can do the job. Oh my God, this is so amazing wonderful, because those are the meeting of your internal wounds, hell and you. So now what I know is a very important part of your company is actually driven by let's give people tons of autonomy, but they they have to justify the money that we pay them. There's a big piece around that. However, what on the polarity of it for Shane is is but we got to give them tons of recognition. So shame will want to give them tons of recognition. He's always wanted to recognize them and validate them and tell them how great the R and be on his that cheering squad. But you know what you want to raise? Well, we have to look at the money here. We got to be very focused on that and day was like yeah, but can you do it your way? You don't need me to tell you tell me how you're going to do it best. So then you found this combined meaning of side of your organization. That is then. So then when you're presenting that, I guarantee that if I sat with you, I guarantee that your dragon fire as a company would be based around that and that's what would come up. And now you're going to do is get the people you're working with to buy into that. So you would say, I come to go work for and you go and I go, well, why do I want to work here? And you go, well, you know, we're paying a fair amount of money for what it is you do. Right, okay, it's fair, but it's better money somewhere else. I know that. And you go, yeah, I know, but no one's going to give you the level of approval in the recognition that we're going to give you. And on top of that, we're going to give you completely autonomy to do exactly what you want to do, as long as you can follow what it is where we're going. And I'm like, okay, now my meanings tight to your meaning. Yeah, that's how it works. So I love this. I often well, we'll say that an organization is a fractal representation of the consciousness of their founders, and I think this is such a beautiful explanation of how that happens, how our core wounds become, you know, deeply ingrained into our leadership styles and why, you know, every founder and manager and leader should be in therapy as well well, but you know what you say there's so important and everybody's like, Oh, you know what a caount go to that we can't talk about those things. If you don't talk about those things, this still running you life. Right, the only differences you you take conscious control of that. So you go okay. So I guess it's my wound. I need recognition, I need to be you know, and one of the things that Shane'll jump on hill be like letting people know,...

...listen, these people may better be above you, but you're just as smart as them. I can tell you his words and people like, Oh my God, is he's psychic? No, I know, because that's how we operate. Well, that's what we do, because I like you know, another wound that I was thinking of is, you know, really growing up not feeling a deep sense of belonging, you know, growing on. I you know, like constantly harassed because of my skin color, which you know, I think is is a tip quickly, is not the typical experience of the average white person in America, first of all, but then also just being kind of different from my family. I'm and I love my family, but I'm also like very driven and Ricius and you know just like well, I'm just like ball of fire coming into this family, that it's just totally different and a lot of ways than I am. And and so so much of the orientation of billing fifteen five has been how do we create that deeper sense of belonging? How do we get people to really self reveal, actually share some of their human story so they can feel seen, they can feel acknowledged for who they really are? And that's exactly it. So and on my side of it, you know, how do we create a company that allows people to actually realize their potential and their best cells and they're fully express selves like that just brings me such joy to create that environment for people. But again, best selves versus Best Express Selves. So best sells is we've got a set of rules and we're going to we're going to push you through and make you into a seal. That's our system, but yours is I want you to go through the system, but I don't want you to come out as David. I mean to come out as the very best you. Well, that is my that's what that's how I hold best self. That's my yeah, that's my definition of best self. Yeah, like, but some people will say that and it's just was. We want you to be a best self fully step into potential, but you got to wear the uniform and you got to say the right words. That's right, you're saying, I need to be a best self, but I don't care if you where the uniform, I don't care if you say the right was. What I care about is that your heart and soul is in this and that you're really stepping into your best self while tied into feeling like this is where you belong and this is, you know, your part of this family, and the in this family, we all lift you up together and we recognize you, evalidate you. So that's how it works. That's that's the that's the bliss of this work for me. Yeah, YEP, exactly. Okay. How do you? How do you tell yeah, thanks, this is a good I. How do you how do you then apply this? You know, say you're just an average manager, or not not an average, but under you're above average manager. How do you begin to understand this? What's a play for yourself? And then also do you start to inform this in your team and the way that you're leading and managing your team? Well, as you both know from conversations we've had when you've been on my show, I wrote about this seemed fiercely loyal and I believe it with every fiber in my being. And it's been proven more and more true every day. The real power is in your vulnerability. But vulnerability needs discernment, and I think this is where people get mistaken. So they think you know. They read about vulnerability. See they you know, Brunei Brown, or whoever is you know, for the last twenty years I've been talking about the need for vulnerability and leadership. But vulnerability needs discernment. So what does that mean? A smart leader has to first of all, I done some self work. So I don't care what your level will role is. It doesn't matter if you're the janitor, it doesn't matter whether you're CEO or anything in between. You are leading. Now what is leading mean? Number One, it means influence and impact. For anything else. So if you go well, I'm not really leader. Do you have children? Yes, you're a leader. Right,...

...that's it. So we're all leading in some way, shape or form if somebody answers to yours or is impacted by your leader. So what does that mean? You need to have selfknowledge. That's where that has to start. So you go into okay, I have to have this selfknowledge. So I got to go there now. I understand that vulnerability is vitally important in my leadership. What's next? Well, it means this reciprocal vulnerability. So I don't reveal to you what I'm not willing to have you revealed to me, or vice versa. So it don't go in and start vomiting your emotional mess all over people. That's not vulnerability, that's emotional vomit. We don't want that. You have to you have to pace it. So you've stopped by, but you know it like that, those questions I just did with you guys. I wouldn't do that as a first question. But what I want to know is you know what is what, and this is the category. What's obvious about you? What's not obvious about you? What's a little hidden about you? Before I get into any of those things, so I want to get to know you, but I'm going to do that right with rest of prosergy. So what's obvious about you, Shane? And you might say, well, I'm wearing a blue shit. Okay. What's obvious about me? As I'm wearing a vest. You can see that. Okay, it's obvious. Okay, and I said You, what's not obvious about you, and you might go, I don't know, and then you'd say, well, maybe it's not obvious that I live in Colorado. Okay, what's not obvious about you? I have four grandchildren. You don't know that unless I reveal it. So there's levels of resciprocity in the vulnerability. It has to have discernment and where You Bang up against the resistance to that is where you have to work as a leader in leading your people, because leaders lead, which means leaders always go first. HMM. Yeah, things that make you go that's right. I'm curious, you know, to go into that a little bit more. Yeah, how do you guide someone to actually move in this direction if they're you know, you know, maybe they're listening to this and it's like, oh, the sounds interesting and it's a good intellectual conversation, but how do I actually you know, when I finished listening to this podcast on Monday morning, I'm going to go try this. Yep, and this is the this is why I'm going to do it and this is the impact I think it's going to have. And it might be a little messy and I might screw it up, but I'm committed to it because of why. You know, how would you guide someone in that line of thinking? agatting great questions? So the first place I would start is you have to always answer for yourself subjectively, why you're going to do something. So, you know, I heard of talk about this and he wrote this book. It was the best selling book. I'm going to go do it. That's not good reason. I heard it on on Shane and David's podcast. Yeah, it's good, but it's not a great reason. It's not good enough. So you've got to you've got to put find out what the skin in the game is for you, and skin in the game again back your dragonfire. The skin in the game is often the cost. What is the cost of not what is the cost of avoiding? What is the cost? So one of the things that I wrote a piece called resisting God's D God's marshmallows, and it's talking about delay gratification, and one of the things we have lost our sense of in our world is delay gratification. What that means is that we've lost our sense of understanding consequences. So when you understand consequences, you've got to push yourself out a little bit with what you're not doing. So if I don't do this, what could be the consequence of this? Well, things will just run as they are. What's the what's the consequence over six months and nine months, twelve months, five years? And you see that things that don't seem to matter matter a lot. So that's where you start finding that process. So here's why I'm going to do it for me. So I see I've got fred working for me. Fred's great. I Love Fred to bits, but he is so walled off and it's got so much crap in the way and I know that what dove was talking about with Shane and David is really sounds like it would work great, but I...

...don't know how to get through that guy. But I seed potential in it. My see so much good stuff in him. So I want to not lose this person and I want to actually bring the best out in them and not have them run away. So here's where do I start? So here's where I want to start, Fred. I want to validate you, recognize you, you know, whatever it is you're going to recognize, in validate that doesn't for what they are and you're going to say what is the challenges you face and you're going to shut up, you're going to listen. You're not solving a problem, you're listening. So number one is you listen. Okay, now you know. You know where all this is going to go. Fred, you know I'm going to ask you. Well, how can you make that better? We've all done the HR conversion, right, but let me ask you a question. If you were going to waive the magic one and make it better for you as a human not just better as a job, in the context of what you said we need to do, what would happen? Then? Fred tells you something, then you must reveal something about yourself that's aligned with that. You must reveal something emotionally that has depth with that. So Fred said, if people would just leave me alone, I'd be okay and I could get my work done. Let's say, says that I will be better for museum and being it's not true. It's a defense mechanism, but that's what he says. I then say, you know, Fred, I don't know if you know this about me, but back in this time I was going through this and during that time I really felt like I wanted to be alone. Because I don't process the way other people process. I don't like to gossip about things I need to process like this, but I honestly took me a while to realize that there were other people who'd gone through that that I could have that conversation with who would actually it would have helped me to move through it much faster. And the reason I know that is because I finally did break down and tell somebody and to my surprise, instead of being rejected, I was accepted and he actually made me move through the process faster. Fred Goes, oh, that's interesting, I'm going through this. So again, reciprocity led by vulnerability. That's real leadership. Okay, I want to ask shift gears a little bit. So we were talking about kind of the way that two thousand and twenty has both, you know, at first everybody, you know, covid hits and everybody lays off. There D and it teams the teams and then, and then, you know, George Floyd gets murdered and the deep wound of racial injustice in this country gets resurfaced, people saying, Oh crap, okay, wow, we really need to actually pay attention and and hopefully actually you know, begin to think about this issue in a much deeper strategic capacity. You you are in the diversity conversation. You're actually talking about the importance of division. Yes, but I'd love to understand that very provocative perspective on this. Shane Me Provoca, is it really Oh, come on, what you're saying that we need, that d should stand for every city. You know our division, diversity and equity. So it's what it comes down to. It the simplest level is it's one of the great holes in positive psychology. One of the great holes in positive psychology, and I'm not saying in the truth of what it is, but in the perception of what it is. Is that people want to deny, they want to look at the positive and they want to deny something rather than seeing it for what it is. So in the diversity conversation we have to examine the division. We can't deny it as though it doesn't really exist, not in our company. Yes, it does, yes, it does. You have racists who work for you, you have misogenist who work for you. These things happen. You may not know about them, but they have them. You have very left people are who supportive of black lives matter and Tifer and all kinds of things, and then the other side you probably got trump people on that side. These people are not bad people. They may not agree with you, that does not make them bad.

So one of the things that I'm talking about we're not the whole thing kicks off, and I think you and I talked to it is shame. When the whole thing kicks off with the pandemic, I reached out to all the leaders I was working with and I said you need me now more than ever. You're going to think about cutting me back and I'm the person you need morement Ebene. Why? Because you are going to have to step into the thing I've been talking to you about four years, the humanity of leadership, because people are going to be stressed out. We're going to see a global version of PTSD. I wrote about that, did a video on that, which is is it's this global reaction to stress is going on. When people resolve and people fall back into stress, what do they do? They go back into survival mechanisms, they go back into small tribes. were seeing that in spades now. So now what that means is if you have a hundred people working for you fifty percent of them likely voted for one side and fifty percent of them voted for the other side. You go no, no, we're in California. That's not true. Okay, let's pretend it's not. Eighty of them voted to for one side and twenty of them body for the other. Are you willing to lose those twenty? Probably not. So what are you going to do? The answer is not diversity, but do but addressing division. How do you address division? The simplicity of it is this. You have to go looking for the commonality. It's the I mean, as you know, I speak and advise on politics as well and on leadership at very high levels, and one of the things I'm saying is that if we don't start addressing the the division, we're going to fall through the same cycle again. So what does that mean? As a company, as as as an organization, we've got to have the uncomfortable conversations, and what are the uncomfortable conversations is we've got to go looking for where we are the same. So the example I give every time is this. People like to think that the people who voted it for Donald Trump were were racists and misogynists. It's not true, because if you actually look at the two thousand and sixteen results, you'll discover that the distinction between who got in and who didn't was based in the same group of people. They were the same people who voted for Obama. They can't be racist assogenists about for Obama and then suddenly become that with Donald Trump there were people who want to change. Well, maybe don't. We have to exhaustion as commonality of change. What's that? Well, maybe they could both be massagenists, you know, but absolutely. But the point is that they don't fall into a simple category. But what we can look at is what they really wanted was change. So there's the common ground. What is the change you wanted to see? Where have you felt ignored? Because both mean both those elections of two thousand and sixteen and the previous elections with Obama. People were saying we want something different. So when you bring your sides, of your people together, they actually want something different, not from each other but from what is. They actually want something different. So if you try to make somebody wrong psychologically, they will embed. So here's the this is the this is humans, as psychology is. If you make something wrong, people will hold onto that. They want to push into a Ghana and they'll hold on to it. But if you can make them right by listening, by creating curiosity, not just your own, but creating curiosity in them, I'm really curious that you would even ask me that. You know you're a Silicone Valley Company and you're asking me about tell me, help me understand where you're coming from with this. It's not right or wrong. I just want to I want to grasp this. You've heard me say before. I believe the cure for the world is curiosity. That's what we need. Yeah, I've been saying empathy, but I think it's essentially the same thing. I think you can't have empathy without curiosity. Well, that's what I was going to say, David. You know, people talk a lot about empathy to talk about compassion. I've done that too,...

...but you don't there's no such thing as empathy without curiosity. That's right. You talk about love and taking what are you know things? What are you going to actually be empathizing with if you weren't curious to step into that person's world? Curiosity is the entry point. A hundred percent. I love that you're going, you know, kind of one step order closer to the actual way that you access that, because you can't simultaneously be judgmental and curious. And so really that's the you know, if you find yourself right or wanting to be right or embedding yourself, you know, the only way that I found out of that for myself, besides taking some time to cool down, because you know, when you're triggered it's hard to get out of that, is but to bring curiosity. It's it's an amazing way to shift out of that state. And the one of my quotes is this. Is that quite and a lot of people think that being curious because they're asking questions. That's not curious. Questions require answers, and with an answer someone would be wrong and someone would be right, and your ego gets to a flight if you're the one is right, your ego gets to deflate if you're wrong. That doesn't work right. You ask requited understanding. Why did you do something stupid like vote for trump? That's not a curious question. No, but even even even why did you vote for trump is not a great question because it's implying something. So here's what I'm saying that questions require answers and somebody's going to be wrong and somebody's going to be right, but curiosity requires a deepening level of understanding. I want to understand that. Tell me more about that. Help me to understand that. Right, it's not, it's and it's so. It's stating. I don't understand. Not, you're not explain it. I don't understand. Help me to understand that. The problem, if there's a problem here, the problem is with me not understanding. Yet I want to understand. So I have friends who are voted trump, I have friends who voted Biden, I have friends who are left, I have friends who are right, I have friends who are Jewish, friends who are Christian, I have friends who are Muslim. My friends in every kind of thing. I don't agree with them all, but I'm curious about every single one of them. I want to understand them, because here's the thing. We're going back to the why of the why. Now I'm saying it's not your truth, it's what's triggering something within you that I'm willing to discover. So, for instance, I work with people who are oftentimes very successful, and so let's you know, I'm working with somebody who is, you know, got more money than most of us that ever dream of having something more than I've ever had, insane amount of money and is always looking at lack. Well, why? Because they had a childhood that triggered that and that's all we're ever doing. They only can see lack. So, rather than going listen, dude, you're wrong, look, you've got all that money in the bank. That's not going to get us anywhere but me understanding what brings that up so that they can understand it. See, when you start to understand somebody, here's what's wonderful happens. They start to understand them. HMM, when you commit to understanding somebody, they start to understand what drives them and motivates them and they let go of the God they don't need it because you're willing to listen, you're willing to actually hear who they are. So it's that's what really connection of this is so interesting because I think that they, as managers, are realizing that there needs to be more of a coaching aspect of how their working with their teams, that just purely top down task management, that the ability to see deeper into people and help them understand themselves through your own curiosity. Is One of the most essential management tools I think that we all need to cultivate. Absolutely and, as I said, in fiercely loyal. Whether you're the janitor or the CEO, you need to add Crro to your business card, even if it's a metaphorical one and it stands for chief relationship officer. You need to be committed to having relationships, and...

...relationships are not about who's in charge or who has the power. There's always a power dynamic. Your job is to try and remove it, to do your best to remove it, not by tearing anybody down or by inflating anybody, but by getting to know each other. If you're in a power dynamic relationship and you're married, your marriage sucks. If you're in a polo dynamic relationship in your business, your business sucks. If you're in a relationship that is relational, whether power is going to be in balanced, it is not natural right. It's going to be in balanced, but there's always a looking at the teacher, tottering towards a balance of understanding and compassion and commitment of understanding of each other. Then it's recognition of Yeah, you've got fifty tons of that. I don't. I've only got twenty tons of that. But I've got fifty tons of this, and these are not more valuable or less valuable, they're equally valuable to each other. That's important, all right, top resources, approaches, practices for cultivating what we call a cultivate relational mastery. You know that we all need to actually learn new skills to be better at relational dynamics. So where do you point people like? How do you how do you get better at being relational? Again, sorry to be repetitive, but the answer is curiosity. You have to be curious. I almost said except for curiosity, nobody, but, but that is that is the depth of the foundation of it. I can teach you fiftyzero techniques. They don't mean a damn thing if you're not willing to approach it from curiosity. So now let me give you the other side of it. You'll never be relational, truly relational, if you're committed to being right. That's it. You have to Ye, have to let go of your need to be right. But, believe me, by the way, that's going to be probably the most difficult thing you've ever done in your life is to put your need to be right to the side and just be willing to be curious about that person. And again, I want to reiterate it's not by your standard, it's by there. So, to give you another piece of this, another piece of the puzzle, I'm going to give you this to remember. Courage is subjective. So what does that mean? As you know, I used to be a mountain climber. People Go, Oh my God, that's so courageous. Well, it really wasn't for me because I did it all the time, but for somebody who's never climb it would be courageous. What would be courageous for me is cleaning up my desktop because it's a mess and and it kind of freaks me out to clean it up, because courage is subjective. Somebody else goes will clean that me desktop. That's easy. Yeah, but courage is subjective. So once you get that, you start to acknowledge people at where they're at. See, we tend to approach people where we think they should be versus where they're at. courriage is subjective. So let me be curious about why you are where you are and how I can be observers to you in coming to where, not where I want you to go, but coming to where you want to go to. How can I lift you into that? And you know you said it before, Shane. The management in its form and in its traditional form is getting helping people to do what I need them to do, you know, to get the thing done we need to get done. But Management Now has much more coaching in it. It's much more human and we've got to actually get our people connected to each other and to themselves. But there is no connection to another until there is a connection to the self. So we have to start that if you want to build better relationships. My number one thing, outside of curiosity with others, is curiosity with self. Yet to know yourself, ask yourself this question. Why do I believe x? When you've entered x? Why do I believe? Why? Just keep going through it, because if you believe...

...it, there's a pretty good chance you adopted it from somewhere else. Now the question is this. If you didn't choose it, is it yours? Once you get to that, you start to understand, oh, I'm carrying on a bunch of beliefs that are not really mine. Now I can have a lot more compassion for other people. I think auld crazy because they believe this. Now, hold on a second. They probably adopted that belief just like you adopted yours. So then now in empathy. Now we're in compassion. So we've got set. We got self curiosity, curiosity with those resciprosody of vulnerability, and now we've got into empathy and compassion as a cycle. It's fantastic to have. Thank you very welcome. Thank you, and it's been a great, great time. One of the things we often like to ask our guests, you know, we like to put questions into fifteen five that essentially have every manager in our company asked their direct reports something on a given week. And I'm curious from you. What do you think would be a great question that our managers could ask next week in fifteen five? Oh, okay, so I would go probably the opposite to a people would go, which is this. What were the highs? What were the lows? So what would the lows of the week for you, and ask them to be as real as possible. What was the high for you? What was the surprise? What was the thing you didn't expect? So that just high, not just little, but something that was like unexpected. Could be good, could be bad, could be something else altogether. And then the final one is, what did you learn from those? So what did you learn from the lower? Need to learn from the high, and what did you learn from the unexpected? And then the final two to that is, what can you do with it in the context of working with your people? Fantastic. And then all of a sudden, business is becoming a heroic journey of self reflection, curiosity with others and ultimately that a more meaningful life. More meaningful life, more meaningful work. The world has changed. Two Thousand and twenty was not just a pandemic. It was in fact, of values pause. Every one of us was stopped, we were asked what really matters. We're all brought back to what really matters is we want meaningful work, but we want meaningful lives. What matters to us? So take this as a values pause and say what really matters to me? Why? Why do I really care about that? Many people were living in cities and of left those cities because they realize I didn't. This is not really matters to me. That's not right or wrong. They now understand. Okay, what matters start taking a look at what really matters to you. Have a values pause, because from that values pause you can actually operating your life with a lot more meaning, a lot more joy, and maybe be with a lot less stuff that you realize. I don't really care about that anymore. Dove. Thanks so much. It is my pleasure, my honor. Thank you, Shane. Thank you, David. Truly a joy to speak with you both. Absolutely in death. Where can people find some more if they want to follow you further? Any where? Are you online? Py know you have your own podcast. Maybe you can share with our folks. Thank you. Yeah, you can find out more about me at Dove Baroncom. That's Deo v B Aroncom. Then you can find access to all kinds of things, including both of my podcasts. I have to podcasts. One is called curiosity bites. The releases every Friday as a forpop beingeworthy series, and then we have leadership and loyalty, which these two fine gentlemen have been guests on, and that is the number one podcast in the wolf fortune five hundred listeners. You can listen to both of those there. You can find access to me through youtube. I have a youtube channel with about seven hundred videos. We also have the dragons den on medium, which is an outlet where's all kinds of great people who write for us on there too. And really, if you just want to know any more about me, I'm happy to talk to you. Listen. I truly believe that information is worth the wholely adonnor transformation comes...

...from application. So right to me, right to dove at Dove Baroncom Dov at Dovb Aarro when tell me what you got out of this. Tell me what you're going to do with it. And, what's more, I'm going to encourage you to right to David, to write to Shane and tell them what you got out of it. They took their time to be here, to bring in great guests. So go on to apple or wherever is you, listen to podcasts, rate, review, subscribe to the show, share it with your friends and then write to us and tell you, tell us what you're going to do with this, because we you need that fire that is in your belly. You did not come to this planet without a reason. You'll hopes and dreams. You did not get them by mistake. They are your soul crying out for expression. Get curious about how you can uplift the world, how you can spread your wings, how you can share your heart, and you'll file with the world, because you are not a mistake and your dreams are not a mistake. Thank you so much to this has been great. World fifteen five is the only evidence based people and performance platform for highly engaged and high performing organizations. Strategic HR leaders in all industries use the platform to win by improving communication, up leveling their managers and increasing company right engagement. Learn more at Fifteen Fivecom you've been listening to HR superstars stories from the front lines of HR and people ops. Be Sure you never miss an episode by subscribing on your favorite podcast player. If you're listening on Apple PODCASTS, would love for you to leave a thoughtful review or give a quick rating by tapping the stars. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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